11. Innovation in Education | Dr. Mohammad Keyhani

Carrie Robinson (00:00.142) or whatever, just make sure there's a pause so that we can edit that piece out rather than just running on, right? And then other than that, we'll just kind of kick it off, right? So we have a little intro. We'll get going roughly about 30 minutes or so, and then we can wrap it up. How does the audience see this? Like, if I look at you guys, will the audience see me looking at, like, the... ZGM Marketing Inc. (00:00.158) whatever just make sure there's a pause so that we can edit that piece out rather than just running on right and then other than that we'll just we'll just kind of kick it off right so we have a little intro we'll get going roughly about 30 minutes or so and then we can wrap it up so Mohammad Keyhani (00:01.169) How does the audience see this? Like if I look at you guys, will audience see me looking at like the screen next to me or the audience usually just sees my screen so they prefer I look into the camera? Carrie Robinson (00:24.738) the screen next to me or the audience usually just sees my screen so they prefer I look in for the camera? Yeah, what you see there is kind of what they're going to see. you know, looking at the computer is roughly looking at the audience, but it doesn't really matter. ZGM Marketing Inc. (00:29.875) Yeah, what you see there is kind of what they're going to see. you know, looking at the computer is roughly looking at the audience, but it doesn't really matter. Like we move around a lot. Mohammad Keyhani (00:30.639) Yeah, what you see there, kind of what I see. So, yeah, when I look like I'm looking at the screen next to me, the audience is also seeing those screens next to each other. Right. Awesome. That's great. So I can just look at you. Carrie Robinson (00:39.833) Yeah, like the audience doesn't watch this hoping to be spoken to like look at necessarily so Exactly they also they'll see all three of us talking to each other. Yeah Carrie Robinson (00:58.478) to look at you because that's a natural thing I might want to do. Totally. that's what we like. That's the point, right? It's just kind of us having a conversation and we happen to be recording it. Yeah, yeah. And if you don't mind just scooting in just a little bit, just to get a tiny bit closer to the mic. I'm going just back this up a bit. Mohammad Keyhani (00:59.675) because that's a natural thing I might want to do. ZGM Marketing Inc. (01:04.082) And if you don't mind just scooting in just a little bit just to get a tiny bit closer to the mic. Thank Mohammad Keyhani (01:15.953) something good. ZGM Marketing Inc. (01:18.834) That's looking pretty good. well, Carrie, why don't you kick us off and we'll just see where we get to. Mohammad Keyhani (01:18.993) Mohamed Kayhani Carrie Robinson (01:19.022) Nice. That's looking pretty good. Yeah. Okay. Well, Carrie, why don't you kick us off and we'll see where we get to. Sorry, can you help me pronounce your last name before I introduce you? Mohamed Kehany. Kehany. Okay, awesome. Mohammad Keyhani (01:36.529) Thank you. Okay, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're live at Adventures again. Very excited. have Mohamed. Oops. I'm mad, think that's me. We just got the same book. We'll start that again. Hello, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're at Adventures. We are interviewing Mohamed Kehany. Carrie Robinson (01:36.536) Thank you. Okay, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're live at Adventures again. Very excited. We have Mohamed, oops. I think that was me. We just got the same notification. We'll start that again. Hello, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're at Adventures. We are interviewing. ZGM Marketing Inc. (01:37.554) Okay, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're live at again. I'm very excited. have Muhammad, whoops. Sorry. I think that was me. That might have been me. yeah. Should have turned that off. Hello, welcome to Artificial Breakdown. We're at Adventures. We are interviewing Muhammad Kehane and he is the director of the TVA program. Carrie Robinson (02:02.781) and is the director of the DBA program at the Heskain School of Business at UFC and an associate professor in entrepreneurship and innovation and all sorts of other things by the sounds of it. So we're very excited to have you on. Thank you. Great to be here. This is awesome. Yeah, it's exciting being live at Inventures. This is new for us. So, you know, this is a little bit of an experiment to see how all the mics and everything work inside this room, but it is... Mohammad Keyhani (02:03.057) and he is the director of the TVA program about the Heskate School of Business at U of C and an associate professor in entrepreneurship and innovation and all sorts of other things. we're very excited to have you with us. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, it's exciting to be live. So, we'll this as an experiment to see how our clients work inside this room, but it is kind of fun. ZGM Marketing Inc. (02:06.674) Pesky School of Business at U of C and associate professor in entrepreneurship and innovation and all sorts of other things. So we're very excited to be here. Thank you. to be here. Yeah, it's exciting to be live at Inventures. This is new for us. So, you know, this is a little bit of an experiment to see how all the mics and everything work inside this room, but it is kind of fun. So, Mohammed, it might be great just to Carrie Robinson (02:31.696) kind of fun. So, Mohamed, it might be great just to get a little bit of your background and kind of what led you to this moment here. Yeah, I'm a business professor at the University of Calgary. Always kind of wanted to be a software engineer, but life didn't take me into that path. But sort of had this nerdy inclination toward coding and software and technology. Mohammad Keyhani (02:33.233) So, it might be great to get a little bit of your background into this moment. Yeah, I'm a business professor at the University of Calgary. Always kind of wanted to be a software engineer, but life didn't take me into that path. But sort of had this nerdy inclination toward coding and software and technology all my life, even as a business professor. ZGM Marketing Inc. (02:36.156) get a little bit of your background and kind of what led you to this moment here. ZGM Marketing Inc. (02:52.722) the nerdy expectations toward coding and software. Carrie Robinson (03:00.866) business professor. So when I started my job as an entrepreneurship professor, was teaching courses on just general entrepreneurship, startups, business planning, like most business schools have. But then I realized that there may be an opportunity sort of Mohammad Keyhani (03:02.729) When I started my job as an entrepreneurship professor, I was teaching courses on just general entrepreneurship, startups, business planning, like most business schools have. But then I realized that there may be an opportunity to sort of merge my love for technology with the kind of entrepreneurship courses that we were teaching at the business school. ZGM Marketing Inc. (03:02.915) started ZGM Marketing Inc. (03:09.585) just general entrepreneurship, startups, business planning, like most business schools have. But then I realized that there may be an opportunity to of merge my love for technology with the kind of entrepreneurship courses that we were teaching at the business school. So I started developing unique courses and it helped that at some point I was area chair in entrepreneurship for our school. So I sort of... Carrie Robinson (03:22.472) my love for technology with the kind of entrepreneurship courses that we were teaching at the business school. So I started developing unique courses and it helped that at some point I was area chair in entrepreneurship for our school so I sort of I got to schedule myself into courses that I liked. So I sort of built new courses around technology for entrepreneurs. Mohammad Keyhani (03:28.441) I started developing unique courses and it helped that at some point I was area chair in entrepreneurship for our school. I sort of, I got to schedule myself into courses that I liked. So I, I sort of built new courses around technology for entrepreneurs. And I think those resulted in pretty unique learning experiences for our students that were not like your typical ZGM Marketing Inc. (03:36.944) I got to schedule myself into courses that I like. So I sort of built new courses around technology for entrepreneurs. And I think those resulted in pretty unique learning experiences for our students that were not like your typical entrepreneurs. Carrie Robinson (03:47.854) and I think those resulted in pretty unique learning experiences for our students that were not like your typical entrepreneurship class that were usually just about like working on an idea, business planning or working on the business model. Mohammad Keyhani (03:57.219) entrepreneurship class that were, you know, usually just about like working on an idea, business planning or working on the business model and maybe maybe doing a pitch competition at the end or in some cases actually trying to make money during the course. Those are sort of the typical entrepreneurship course that you would have at a business school. But I started merging it with technology and we created courses called things like ZGM Marketing Inc. (03:59.576) usually just about like working on business planning or working on the business model, maybe doing a pitch competition at the end or in some cases actually trying to make money during the course. Those are sort of the typical entrepreneurship course that you would have at a business school. But I started merging with technology and we created courses called things like Entrepreneurship Technology, Technology for Entrepreneurs. Carrie Robinson (04:07.832) maybe doing a pitch competition at the end, or in some cases actually trying to make money during the course. Those are sort of the typical entrepreneurship course that you would have at a business school. But I started merging it with technology and we created courses called things like Entrepreneurship Technology, Technology for Entrepreneurs, Technologies of Innovation, and more recently a dedicated Generative AI and Prompting course that I... Mohammad Keyhani (04:25.423) entrepreneurship technology, technology for entrepreneurs, technologies of innovation, and more recently a dedicated generative AI and prompting course that I've developed. So these sort of more like technology oriented entrepreneurship courses really helped me merge my two loves, entrepreneurship and technology, and provide some really cool learning experiences to our students. ZGM Marketing Inc. (04:27.811) technologies of innovation and more recently a dedicated generative AI and prompting course that I've developed. So these sort of more like technology oriented entrepreneurship courses really helped me merge my my two loves entrepreneurship and technology. Carrie Robinson (04:37.654) So these sort of more like technology oriented entrepreneurship courses really helped me merge my two loves, entrepreneurship and technology, and provide some really cool learning experiences to our students. They also sort of helped me build. I love building software, but I never had the time to sort of... ZGM Marketing Inc. (04:50.429) and provide some really cool learning experiences to our students. They also sort of helped me build. I love building software, but I never had the time to sort of become a full software engineer, as you might have. Mohammad Keyhani (04:55.421) they also sort of helped me build. I love building software, but, I never had the time to sort of, become a full software engineer, as you might, describe, like someone who, who's got a degree or built a career around software engineering. Not like that, but I could describe myself as like an indie hacker, like someone who just Carrie Robinson (05:06.894) become a full software engineer as you might. ZGM Marketing Inc. (05:14.065) describe someone who got a degree or built a career in software engineering. Not like that, but I could describe myself as an indie hacker. Someone who just builds on whatever they can to put together a software solution for something. So doing that, I got familiar with no code tools. that was one of the reasons I brought in. Because when you build with no code tools, Carrie Robinson (05:14.252) describe someone who's got a degree or built a career out of software engineering. Not like that, but I could describe myself as an indie hacker. Someone who just builds on whatever they can to put together a software solution for something. So doing that, I got familiar with no-code tools. And that was one of the reasons I brought it in. Because when you're built with no-code tools, Mohammad Keyhani (05:25.073) build on whatever they can to put together a software solution for something. So doing that, I got familiar with no code tools. And that was one of the reasons I brought in. Because when you build with no code tools, you're liberated from having to have that technology background. A lot of our business students are like that. They have good ideas. They want to work on projects. ZGM Marketing Inc. (05:41.777) You're liberated from having to have that technology background. A lot of our students are like that. They have good ideas, they want to work on projects. They often feel like there's a bottleneck. I sometimes call it the tyranny of the technical co-founder. That they're waiting and waiting for that magical technical co-founder to come up. But that technical co-founder... Carrie Robinson (05:41.998) You're liberated from having to have that technology background. A lot of our business students are like that. They have good ideas, they want to work on projects. They often feel like there's a bottleneck. I sometimes call it the tyranny of the technical co-founder. They're waiting and waiting for that magical technical co-founder to show up. Right. Mohammad Keyhani (05:54.533) they often feel like there's a bottleneck. I sometimes call it the tyranny of the technical co-founder. That they're waiting and waiting for that magical technical co-founder to show up. Yeah. But that technical co-founder has opportunity costs, has other things they want to work on. And it happens sometimes that you can team up with a technical co-founder, but more often than not, they just get bottlenecked. ZGM Marketing Inc. (06:10.977) opportunity costs as other things they want to work on. It happens sometimes that you can team up with a technical co-founder but more often than not they just get bottlenecked and ideas die in that waiting period. yeah, figuring out that no you can do it yourself there are tools you can do. I started with NoCoat for me and now with AI coding all the AI tools available. Carrie Robinson (06:11.544) cost as other things they want to work on. It happens sometimes that you can team up with a technical co-founder, but more often than not, they just get bottlenecked and ideas die in that waiting period. So yeah, figuring out that no, you can do it yourself. are tools you can do. It started with no code for me and then now with AI coding and all the AI tools available, even more liberty. Mohammad Keyhani (06:23.885) Ideas die in that waiting period. So yeah, figuring out that no, you can do it yourself. There are tools you can do. Started with no code for me and now with AI coding and all the AI tools available, even more liberated. I feel like everyone can just build right now. Building is no longer a bottleneck. There are still lots of bottlenecks in entrepreneurship, lots of hard things to do, but ZGM Marketing Inc. (06:39.226) What are some examples like Carrie Robinson (06:40.654) feel like everyone can just build right now. Building is no longer a bottleneck. There are still lots of bottlenecks in entrepreneurship, lots of hard things to do. But sort of building that first thing and even going to full production app is not hard with, I shouldn't say not hard, not impossible, but the tools available. What are some examples like? Mohammad Keyhani (06:52.601) sort of building that first thing. Even going to full production app is not hard with, I shouldn't say not hard, not impossible with the tools available. ZGM Marketing Inc. (07:08.304) Because I've seen AI app builders out in the market and site builders, prototypes, all those types of things. Are they as robust as they look or are they still early days? Like, you get, is it proof of concept or can you get, like you mentioned, like, can you get your actual product completed this way? You can. You got to have to do it. There are some no code builders that are really just good for Mohammad Keyhani (07:09.137) I've seen AI app, site builders, prototypes, are they as robust as they look or are they still early raised? Can you get proof of concept or can you get your actual product? Yeah, you can. You got to put in the time and effort to do it. There are some no code builders that are really mostly just good for prototypes. Carrie Robinson (07:09.166) I've seen AI app builders out in the market and site builders, prototypes, all those types of things. Are they as robust as they look or are they still early days? Like, can you get, is it proof of concept or can you get, like you mentioned, like can you get your actual product completed this way? You can, you gotta put in the time and effort to do it. There are some no code builders that are really mostly just good for prototypes, but take something like bubble.io for example, like the leading edge full stack no code builder, Bubble. There have been multiple multi-million dollar companies built with Bubble. Wow. By now. ZGM Marketing Inc. (07:38.48) Right Mohammad Keyhani (07:39.589) But take something like Bubble.io, for example, like the leading edge, full stack, no code builder, Bubble. There have been multiple, multi-million dollar companies built with Bubble by now. And so it's not just a game anymore. It's not just for prototypes. It's a serious tool. And there is a serious ecosystem of Bubble developers, Bubble consultants. ZGM Marketing Inc. (07:43.916) stack no code builder bubble there have been multiple multi-million dollar companies built ZGM Marketing Inc. (07:55.987) So it's not just a game anymore. It's not just prototypes. It's a serious tool. And there is a serious ecosystem of bubble developers, bubble consultants, agencies, studios that build with bubble. So you can do serious things with them. Same with AI voting. A lot of people are just putting together little demos and prototypes. Carrie Robinson (07:56.01) And so it's not just a game anymore. It's not just for prototypes. It's a serious tool. And there is a serious ecosystem of bubble developers, bubble consultants, agency studios that build with bubble. So you can do serious things with it. Same with AI coding. A lot of people are just putting together little devs. Mohammad Keyhani (08:09.025) agencies, studios that build with Bubble. So you can do serious things with it. Same with AI coding. A lot of people are just putting together little demos and prototypes, but it's possible to sit down and build production apps. A lot of Y Combinator startups are saying on Twitter publicly that they are mostly AI coding right now. ZGM Marketing Inc. (08:20.387) But it's possible to sit down and build production apps. A lot of Y Combinator startups are saying on Twitter publicly that they are mostly AI voting right now. the details of the code, I've heard one founder call them just implementation details. no longer need to... Carrie Robinson (08:20.706) But it's possible to sit down and build production apps. A lot of Y Combinator startups are saying on Twitter publicly that they are mostly AI voting right now. Mohammad Keyhani (08:34.929) The details of the code, I've heard one founder call them just implementation details we no longer need to worry about. That's the kind of thing that's going on. I had my own experience. I've been building lots of different prototypes and stuff, but there was one tool that I really wanted to build that was pretty sophisticated. And I tried at one point in around 2020 when COVID hit. Carrie Robinson (08:35.02) The details of the code, I've heard one founder call them just implementation details we no longer need to worry about. That's the kind of thing we have at that's just, it's happening over here. I have my own experience, so I've been building lots of different prototypes and stuff, but there was one tool that I really wanted to build that was pretty sophisticated, and I tried at one point in around 2020. ZGM Marketing Inc. (08:41.551) Right. Carrie Robinson (09:02.33) hit. That was when a lot of people got to know no-code and bubble specifically like when they show their growth charts they hit the growth in the COVID era because a lot of people had some free time to sit down and build stuff during COVID and I was one of them so I wanted to build this thing that I wanted to build which is the list curation platform. Mohammad Keyhani (09:03.099) That was when a lot of people got to know no code and bubbles specifically, like when they show their growth charts, they hit the growth in COVID era because a lot of people had some free time to sit down and build stuff during COVID and I was one of them. So I wanted to build this thing that I wanted to build, which is the list curation platform. Now, if you have a minute, I want to tell you the story of why I wanted to build a list curation platform because it's a pretty cool story. ZGM Marketing Inc. (09:05.729) specifically like when they show their gross charts they'll pick the gross in COVID era because lot of people had some free time to sit down and build stuff during COVID and I was one of them so I wanted to build this thing that I wanted to build which is a list curation platform. Now, if you have a minute, I want to tell you this story of why I wanted to build a list curation platform. Sure. story. So back when I started my job as an entrepreneurship professor in 2013, again, with my love for technology, I started collecting a list of tools, software tools that entrepreneurs could use and basically as a learning resource for my students in class. So the list started getting longer and longer and I was looking for a Carrie Robinson (09:25.486) If you have a minute, I want to tell you the story of why I wanted to build a list curation platform. This is a pretty cool story. So back when I started my job as an entrepreneurship professor in 2013, again with my love for technology, I started collecting a list of tools, software tools that entrepreneurs could use and basically as a learning resource for my students in class. So the list started getting longer and longer and I would... Mohammad Keyhani (09:32.239) So back when I started my job as an entrepreneurship professor in 2013, again, with my love for technology, I started collecting a list of tools, software tools that entrepreneurs could use and basically as a learning resource for my students in class. So the list started getting longer and longer and I was looking for a way to publish it in a nice presentable format on the internet that I could give my students back then. Carrie Robinson (09:51.15) looking for a way to publish it in a nice presentable format on the internet that I could give my students back then. Airtable, Notion, the kind of tools that people use to publish lists these days weren't available or weren't very popular. ZGM Marketing Inc. (09:51.682) to publish it in a nice presentable format on the internet that I could give my students back then. Airtable, Notion, the kind of tools that people use to publish lists these days weren't available or weren't very popular. Mohammad Keyhani (10:00.561) Airtable, Notion, the kind of tools that people use to publish lists these days weren't available or weren't very popular. I tried looking for a couple of years and then in 2016, I found an interesting tool. It was a list curation platform. Somebody had made a Dutch company, a Dutch startup, had made a tool specifically just to publish lists and get crowdsourced. ZGM Marketing Inc. (10:10.958) I tried looking for a couple of years and then in 2016 I found an interesting tool. It was a list curation platform. Somebody had made a Dutch company, a Dutch startup, had made a tool specifically just to publish lists and get crowdsourced suggestions for what to put on the list and see how many people have sort of liked Carrie Robinson (10:11.15) I tried looking for a couple of years and then in 2016 I found an interesting tool. It was a list curation platform. Somebody had made a Dutch company, a Dutch startup, had made a tool specifically just to publish lists and get crowdsourced suggestions for what to put on the list and see how many people sort of liked items on your list or just manage a nice categorized list that you can present in one page. Mohammad Keyhani (10:28.123) crowd-sourced suggestions for what to put on the list and see how many people have sort of liked items on your list or just manage a nice categorized list that you can present in one page. And the amount of items that you could present in one page was really impressive because they had these expandable categories that showed five items that you could show more and it would expand. It was a really nice presentable way of showing someone a comprehensive list of ZGM Marketing Inc. (10:33.934) on your list or just manage a nice categorized list that you can present in one page. And the amount of items that you can present in one page was really impressive because it had these expandable categories that showed like five items that you could plus show more. Carrie Robinson (10:41.006) And the amount of items that you could present in one page was really impressive because they have these expandable categories that know for show like five items that you could plus show more and it would expand. It was a really nice presentable way of showing someone a comprehensive list of links or resources. So I thought yeah that's the tool I need. So in 2016 the tool was called Zeef. ZGM Marketing Inc. (10:51.406) expand it was a really nice presentable way of showing someone a comprehensive list of links. So I thought yeah that's the tool ID. In 2016 the tool was called Z. I actually published my curated list of entrepreneurship tools like all the different tools for entrepreneurs. Mohammad Keyhani (10:57.713) links or resources. So I thought, yeah, that's the tool I need. So in 2016, the tool was called ZEF. I actually published my curated list of entrepreneurship tools, like all the different tools for entrepreneurs. And I meant it as just the resource for my students, but I went to sleep one day and woke up and realized that I'm getting my 15 minutes of fame on the internet. Carrie Robinson (11:07.126) I actually published my curated list of entrepreneurship tools, like all the different tools for entrepreneurs. And I meant it as just a resource for my students, but I went to sleep one day and I woke up and realized that I'm getting my 15 minutes of fame on the no way. It had gone viral. People around the world were looking at my list. ZGM Marketing Inc. (11:15.054) And I meant it as just a resource for my students, but I went to sleep one day and woke up and realized that I'm getting my 15 minutes fame on the It had gone viral. People around the world were looking at my lists, emailing me, trying to call me to say, like, why is our startup not on your list? It was a crazy thing. And I tried to figure out how did this go viral? And I realized that apparently Mohammad Keyhani (11:26.189) It had gone viral. People around the world were looking at my lists, emailing me, trying to call me to say, like, why is our startup not on your list? It was a crazy thing. And I tried to figure out how did this go viral. And I realized that apparently some major influencer had shared it on their private Slack channel. And then somebody on that Slack channel had taken my list and put it on product hunt. Carrie Robinson (11:31.694) emailing me trying to call me to say like why is our startup not on your list? It was a crazy thing and I tried to figure out how did this go viral and I realized that apparently some major influencer had shared it on their private Slack channel and then somebody on that Slack channel had ZGM Marketing Inc. (11:43.839) some major influencer had shared it on their private Slack channel and then somebody on that Slack channel had taken my list and put it on Product Hunt. Product Hunt is a major forum for startups. Startups have Product Hunt launch strategies. That's how we do a good launch on Product And I was not aware because most people just... Carrie Robinson (11:50.862) Take in my list and put it on product hunt Product hunt is a major forum for startups like startups have product launch strategies and I was not aware because most people just Publish their own product on product hunt. They have a launch strategy but product hunt essentially let's other people post your product as well and sometimes Mohammad Keyhani (11:54.267) Product Hunt is a major forum for startups. Startups have Product Hunt launch strategies. That's how important it is to do a good launch on Product Hunt. And I was not aware, because most people just publish their own product on Product Hunt. They have a launch strategy. But Product Hunt essentially lets other people post your product as well. And sometimes that can happen when you're not ready. ZGM Marketing Inc. (12:08.071) Publish their own product on product on launch strategy, but product comes Essentially let other people post your product as well. Sometimes I could happen when you're not ready Carrie Robinson (12:19.698) Yeah, I'm not kidding. That just gave me anxiety. Imagine somebody doing that. Mohammad Keyhani (12:22.161) Someone posted my list on Productant. And of course, because all the Productant people love discovering new tools and new startups, that's the whole community. My list went viral on Productant. It got more than 1500 upvotes, is like what startups dream of getting. And I was not prepared for it. Carrie Robinson (12:33.27) discovering new tools and new startups that's their whole community. My list went viral on ProductDoc. It got more than 1500 uploads, is like what startups dream of getting. And I was not prepared for it. ZGM Marketing Inc. (12:37.193) My list went viral and Product Dappered got more than 1500 upvotes, is like what startups dream of. And I was not prepared for it. I did not monetize that popularity at all. I failed to take any monetary advantage of that. But probably Zeef, the company that had hosted the list, probably got some ad revenue. Mohammad Keyhani (12:47.011) I did not monetize that popularity at all. I failed to take any monetary advantage of that. But probably Zeef, the company that had hosted the list, probably got some ad revenue out of that virality. But anyways, Zeef was unable, ultimately in the next few years following that in 2016, Zeef was unable to create a sustainable business model out of that. Carrie Robinson (12:49.55) I didn't fail to take any monetary advantage of that. But probably Zeef, the company that had hosted the list, probably got some ad revenue out of that virality. But anyways, Zeef was unable, ultimately in the next few years following that in 2016, Zeef was unable to create a sustainable business model out of that, especially since they had raised venture capital money. ZGM Marketing Inc. (13:00.909) But anyways, Zeef was unable, ultimately in the next few years following that in 2016, Zeef was unable to create a sustainable business model out of that. Especially since they had raised venture capital money. If you raise venture capital money, you have to show the return on investment and that business model was not doing it. Just like a list curation platform. Mohammad Keyhani (13:14.757) especially since they had raised venture capital money. And if you raise venture capital money, you have to like show the return on investment. And that business model was just was not doing it just like a list curation platform. But I, as a power user of Zeev, I had one of the most popular lists on Zeev, wanted a product like that. I wanted my list to be up there. I knew lots of people were using referencing that list. I was keeping it updated. Carrie Robinson (13:18.44) raise venture capital money you have to like show the return on investment and that business model was just was not doing it just like a list curation platform but I as a power user of zeef I had one of the most popular lists on zeef wanted a product like that ZGM Marketing Inc. (13:30.252) But I, as a power user of I had one of the most popular lists on Zeev. I wanted a product like that. I wanted my list to be up there. I knew lots of people were using, referencing that list. I was keeping it updated. But yeah, around 2020, I realized that the company is sort of going bankrupt. Carrie Robinson (13:38.03) to be up there. knew lots of people were using referencing that list. I was keeping it updated. But yeah, around 2020, I realized that the company is sort of going bankrupt. It's not clear how much longer my list is going to be up there. So I wanted to build my own Zeef alternative. And I started building with Bubble. And it really excited me because in a matter of like a couple of months, I was able to build like 80 % of a Zeef alternative. Mohammad Keyhani (13:44.816) But yet around 2020, I realized that the company is sort of going bankrupt. It's not clear how much longer my list is going to be up there. So I wanted to build my own Zeev alternative. And I started building with Bubble and it really excited me because in a matter of like a couple of months, I was able to build like 80 % of a Zeev alternative. Actually, it even had more features than Zeev that I needed as a user. ZGM Marketing Inc. (13:50.132) It's not clear how much longer my list is going to be up there. So I wanted to build my own alternative. And I started building with Bubble. And it really excited me because in a matter of a couple of months, I was able to build 80 % of a Zeep alternative. Actually, it even had more features than Zeep that I needed as a user. So I built those with Bubble. And it was amazing to me that I could do it. Carrie Robinson (14:08.268) actually it even had more features than Zeev's that I needed as a user. So I built those with Bubble and it was amazing to me that I could do it all by myself, no GoFundMe, no venture capital money. Zeev had 10 software developers and venture capital money and I didn't have any of that. Mohammad Keyhani (14:13.421) So I built those with bubble and it was amazing to me that I could do it all by myself. No co-founders, no venture capital money. Like Zef had 10 software developers and venture capital money and I didn't have any of that, but I was able to build it with bubble. The only problem was that it didn't look great. The design skills that you need to build something nice looking with bubble is still, is still a bottleneck for. ZGM Marketing Inc. (14:18.568) Right Carrie Robinson (14:29.198) The only problem was that it didn't look great. The design skills that you need to build something nice looking with bubble is still a bottleneck for non-developer, non-designer person like me. I actually, at one point, I hired a professional designer who's one of the best bubble developers as well. Mohammad Keyhani (14:43.273) non-developer, not designer person like me. I actually, at one point, I hired a professional designer who was one of the best Bubble developers as well. Her name is Kelly Claus and I hired her sort of as a freelancer to come in and redesign one page in my app just so I could see, if a professional designer did it, what would it look like? ZGM Marketing Inc. (14:47.66) actually one point i hired professional one the best developers as well kelly i heard it sort of as a free back to come in re-design one-page in my app just so i can see professional designer it would look much better Carrie Robinson (14:57.78) Kelly Kloss and I hired her to sort of as a freelancer to come in and redesign one page in my app just so I could see if a professional designer did it what would it look like? would it look like? Yeah. It would look much better. They tend to do that. I've noticed that too. Mohammad Keyhani (15:10.129) Much better. Yeah, professionals. Yeah, they look much better than what I had. And I realized, oh man, if I had, if I was a professional designer, I could have built this much nicer. Anyways, I got 80 % of the way there, but ultimately didn't launch it. Another reason I didn't launch it was that bubble suddenly changed their pricing model and the kind of app I was building would, would become expensive to host on bubble. ZGM Marketing Inc. (15:16.107) It looked much better than what I had. ZGM Marketing Inc. (15:22.732) Anyways, I got 80 % of the way there, but ultimately didn't launch it. Another reason I didn't launch it was that Bubble suddenly changed their pricing model and the kind of app I was building would become expensive to host on Bubble. So I moved away from that. Now, fast forward, so that was 2020, almost launched it, didn't quite get there. In 2020, Carrie Robinson (15:23.534) Anyways, I got 80 % of the way there, but ultimately didn't launch it. Another reason I didn't launch it was that Bubble suddenly changed their pricing model and the kind of app I was building would become expensive to host on Bubble. So I moved away from that. Now, fast forward. So that was 2020. Almost launched it. Didn't quite get there. In 2020... Mohammad Keyhani (15:39.73) so I moved away from that now fast forward. that was 2020 almost launched it. Didn't quite get there in 2020. ZGM Marketing Inc. (15:53.323) five, yeah, just this year. After like two years of AI following AI news and everything, I realized around the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, that the AI coder tools like cursor and replit are getting good enough that you can actually build good quality products and maybe production, well, not just prototypes. So I first did an experiment, I think around Mohammad Keyhani (15:53.521) Five, yeah, just this year. After like two years of being involved with AI, following AI news and everything, I realized around the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, that the AI coder tools like Cursor and Replit are getting good enough that you can actually build good quality products and maybe production, not just prototypes. Carrie Robinson (15:53.582) Five, yeah, just this year. After like two years of being involved with AI, following the AI news and everything, I realized around the end of 2024, the end of 2025, that the AI coder tools like Cursor and Replit are getting good enough that you can actually build. good quality products and maybe production, well, not just prototypes. So I first did an experiment, I think around late 2024, I built a game app. It's on Android Marketplace now. I'm formally an Android developer. Wow, congrats. No idea how to build Android apps. I built one. wow. With cursor. Mohammad Keyhani (16:21.009) So I first did an experiment, I think around late 2024. I built a game app. It's on Android Marketplace now. I'm formally an Android developer, even though I have no idea how to build Android apps. I built one with Cursor and Replet, and ultimately was able to publish it on the Android Marketplace. It's a little game called Match Beat that you can... Match Beat? Yeah, Match Beat. ZGM Marketing Inc. (16:23.666) I built a game app. It's on Android Marketplace now. I'm formally an Android developer. congrats! I built one with Cursor and Replet and ultimately was able to publish it on the Android Marketplace. It's a little game called Match Beat. Match Beat? Yeah, Match Beat. Match Beat. Yeah, it's a little cognitive stretch game. Carrie Robinson (16:42.348) game called Match Beat. Match Beat? Yeah, Match Beat. Match Beat. Yeah, it's a little cognitive stretch game where you try to exercise your mental muscles matching cards at different I love puzzles. that's good stuff. so, I've never used those tools. they prompt based? Is that how you're building it? Yeah, you prompt, it gives you code. Mohammad Keyhani (16:46.545) Matchbeat. Yeah, it's a little cognitive stretch game where you try to exercise your muscle's matching cards at different speeds and criteria. ZGM Marketing Inc. (16:54.437) exercise your mental muscles matching cards at different speeds. Oh, I love puzzles. Yeah, that's good stuff. And so, I've never used those tools. Are they prompt based? Like, is that how you're building it? are you actually? Yeah, it's called prompt. It gives you code. Mohammad Keyhani (17:06.265) Yeah. Yeah. Well, you prompt, it gives you code, and it takes care of some of the process. So when chat GPT initially was able to produce code, people started copy pasting that code into coding environments, like VS code, or GitHub co-pilot would just do it, generate the code right in your coding environment. That was the first thing that people were doing, but you still had to manage some things like ZGM Marketing Inc. (17:10.814) and it takes care of some of the process. So when ChatGPD initially was able to produce code, people started copy-pasting that code into coding environments, like VS code. Or GitHub Copilot would just do it, generate the code right in the coding environment. So that was the first thing that people were doing. But you still had to manage some things. Like if you had an existing code, Carrie Robinson (17:11.062) and it takes care of some of the process. So when JAD GPT initially was able to produce code, people started copy-pasting that code into coding environments like VS code. Or GitHub Copilot would just do it, generate the code right in. that was the first thing that people were doing. But you still had to manage some things. Like if you had an existing code, then you asked for an edit. And then they gave you another piece of code. You had to figure out, where does this go in my previous code? And how do I manage that? Mohammad Keyhani (17:35.769) If you had an existing code and you asked for an edit and then it gave you another piece of code, you had to figure out, where does this go in my previous code and how do I manage that? How do I change what is dependent on this code now? And so these AI coding tools started to realize that an additional layer of software is needed to take care of those things that Chagg GPT just won't do on its own. ZGM Marketing Inc. (17:37.555) Then you ask for an edit. And then they gave you another piece of code. You have to figure out, OK, where does this go? Previous code, how do I manage that? How do I change what is dependent on this code now? And so these AI coding tools started to realize that an additional layer of software is needed. Carrie Robinson (17:47.404) how do I change what is dependent on this code now? And so these AI coding tools started to realize that an additional layer of software is needed to take care of those things that chat GPT just won't do on its own. ZGM Marketing Inc. (17:58.418) to take care of those things that child TV teachers won't do on its own. So then people started building things like cursor, windsurf, bolt.new, lovable.dev, all of these AI tools. And my favorite one is Replet because it takes care of whole bunch of things. I've tried many of them. Replet takes care of whole bunch of things for me as a non-coder that some of the other ones don't. Mohammad Keyhani (18:03.257) So then people started building things like cursor, windsurf, bolt.new, lovable.dev, all of these AI coding tools. My favorite one is Replet because it takes care of a whole bunch of things. I've tried many of them. Replet takes care of a whole bunch of things for me as a non-coder that some of the other ones don't. And they sort of rely on you still having some software engineering. Carrie Robinson (18:03.306) So then people started building with things like cursor, windsurf, volts.new, lovable.dev, all of these AI coding tools. And my favorite one is Replet because it takes care of a whole bunch of things. I've tried many of them. Replet takes care of whole bunch of things for me as a non-coder that some of the other ones don't. And they sort of rely on you still having some software engineering. ZGM Marketing Inc. (18:26.569) they sort of rely on you still having some software engineering knowledge for example to manage the link between the software and the database for example that I just didn't want to handle I did learn a lot about this stuff as I was AI coding but I still found it too complicated to handle as software engineer. Yeah, well it's better than teaching yourself to be a software engineer and a designer. Carrie Robinson (18:30.638) knowledge, for example, to manage the link between the software and the database, for example, that I just didn't want to handle. I did learn a lot about this stuff as I was AI coding, but I still found it too complicated to handle as a non-software engineer. Yeah, well, it's better than teaching yourself to be a software engineer and a designer and a writer and whatever else you have to be. Designer, good thing you mentioned that because this time... Mohammad Keyhani (18:30.929) knowledge, for example, to manage the link between the software and the database, for example, that I just didn't want to handle. I did learn a lot about this stuff as I was AI coding, but I still found it too complicated to handle as a non-software engineer. Yeah, well it's better than teaching software to be a software engineer and a designer. designer good thing you mentioned that because this time remember my bottleneck last time was design right this time when I built with AI coding the AI had design taste the AI who codes for you is not just a functional programmer ZGM Marketing Inc. (18:56.009) Design, a good thing you mentioned that because this time, remember my bottle case last time was design, right? This time when I built with AI coding, the AI had design taste. Oh, interesting. The AI who codes for you is not just a functional programmer. So do you see this as the evolution of programming or is there still a place for kind of the old hand bombing code into the console? Do you feel like this is the new norm? Carrie Robinson (19:00.878) like last time it was design, right? This time when I built with AI coding, the AI had design taste. Yeah, it's much better than now. AI who codes for you is not just a functional programmer. Right. So do you see this as the evolution of programming or is there still a place for kind of the old hand bombing code but into the console? Do you feel like this is the new norm? It's definitely the new norm. Mohammad Keyhani (19:25.009) It's definitely the new norm. But is there a role for traditional programming knowledge? I think to some extent, yes, definitely right now. But in the long term, I wonder if what we call programming today will just seem like what they call like lower level programming, like compiler code that most programmers don't deal with that because they ZGM Marketing Inc. (19:25.833) It's definitely, but is there a role for traditional programming knowledge? I think to some extent, yes, definitely right now, but in the long term, I wonder if what we call programming today will just seem like what they call lower level programming, like compiler code, that most programmers don't deal with that. Carrie Robinson (19:29.602) But is there a role for traditional programming knowledge? I think to some extent, yes. Definitely right now, but in the log... programming today will just seem like what they call like lower level programming like compiler code that most programmers don't deal with that because they work at a higher level of abstraction those lower levels of abstraction have already been taken care of that's already the case for programming so we're just like doing that again one more level of abstraction now where ultimately in the future I think most programmers may not have to worry Mohammad Keyhani (19:53.945) work at a higher level of abstraction. Those lower levels of abstraction have already been taken care of. That's already the case for programming. So we're just like doing that again, one more level of abstraction now, where ultimately in the future, I think most programmers may not have to worry about what we call code today. Maybe they'll be thinking at a higher level. But right now, ZGM Marketing Inc. (19:55.113) abstraction those lower levels of abstraction have already been taken care of that's already the case for programming so we're just like doing that again one more level of abstraction now yeah ultimately in the future I think most programmers may not have to worry about what we call code today Carrie Robinson (20:12.78) we call code today, well, maybe they'll be thinking at a higher level. But right now, if you are AI coding, it definitely helps if you are an actual programmer. And you know, yeah, that's like most things. If you're an expert in something, you're going to be able to ask AI to do something pretty amazing with it. And I've learned, and I've had to learn a lot of the coding stuff that I didn't know. ZGM Marketing Inc. (20:19.804) But right now, if you are AI coding, it definitely helps if you are an actual programmer. And you know, yeah, that's like most things. you're an expert in something, you're going to be able to ask AI to do something. It's funny. Yeah. Mohammad Keyhani (20:21.219) If you are AI coding, it definitely helps if you are an actual programmer and can understand the code. And I've learned, I had to learn a lot of the coding stuff that I didn't know, just trying to figure out how to fix the bugs. Right. That's how you learn, right? Yeah. ZGM Marketing Inc. (20:37.129) Just trying to figure out how to fix the bugs. Right. That's how you learn, right? I'm get this thing done. I'm designer, so I find it easier with a design background to use design tools even if they are doing most of the heavy lifting nowadays, right? Like, it makes sense. I brought this up earlier, but I did want to ask you just in general... Carrie Robinson (20:37.39) just try to figure out how to fix the bugs. Right, that's how you learn, right? It's like, I really want to get this thing done and I don't have a coder, so I guess I have to learn. I find it similar. I'm a designer, so I that with a design background, you use design tools even as they argue the most with the heavy lifting nowadays, right? I brought this up earlier, but I did want to ask you just... Mohammad Keyhani (20:56.456) I was just in general Carrie Robinson (21:00.718) in general, the school's approach to AI. So you're still teaching, I'm assuming. And I've seen, too, like I have my son's school, which I won't name, very anti-technology, right? Like there's tools when they're doing homework to make sure that they're not using GPT. There's like, there's no phones in the school allowed. I think it's surprising that they allow calculators. ZGM Marketing Inc. (21:02.089) the school's approach to AI. So you're still teaching, I'm assuming. And I've seen too, like I have my son's school, which I won't name, very anti-technology, right? Like there's tools when they're doing homework to make sure that they're not using GPT. There's like, there's no phones in the school allowed. I think it's surprising that they allow calculators. It's just, it's one of those. Mohammad Keyhani (21:06.176) your teeth, your spilt teeth, and I'm seeing too, like my son is in school, are okay, very anti-technology, Like there's tools, they're called, they make sure that they're not using GPT, there's no fault since school allowed. I think it's surprising that there's a lot of calculators. It's one of those types of mentalities where, you know, they're Carrie Robinson (21:30.624) It's one of those types of mentalities where there's my son trying to learn this stuff on his own side. And it feels like this is probably going to be a big part of your life. And it feels like it's weird that you're having to sneak learn this big change in your life. And I feel like the UFC has a bit of a broader spectrum of how they view technology. ZGM Marketing Inc. (21:31.366) types of mentalities where, you know, there's my son kind of trying to learn this stuff on his own side. And it feels like this is probably going to be a big part of your life. And it feels like it's weird that you're having to sneak learn this kind of big change in your life. I feel like the UFC has a bit of a broader spectrum of how they view technology and this kind of thing. Is that true? Yeah. mean, university Mohammad Keyhani (21:34.673) my son, who tried to learn this stuff on his own side and feels like this is probably going to be a part of your life. And it feels like it's weird that you have this e-clarinist kind of big change in your life. And I feel like you have a bit of a broader spectrum of technology. Is that true? Yeah. mean, the University of Calgary, like many other Carrie Robinson (21:56.718) this kind of thing. Is that true? Yeah, mean, University of Calgary, like many other universities and colleges and even K-12 schools are trying to figure out what to do. There's a major shift that has happened and it's kind of taken everyone off guard. It's not easy to figure out how to respond. ZGM Marketing Inc. (22:03.92) University. Mohammad Keyhani (22:04.099) universities and colleges and even K-12 schools are trying to figure out what to do. There's a major shift that has happened and it's kind of taken everyone off guard. It's not easy to figure out how to respond. And generally, large institutions like this are difficult to move and difficult to get everyone to move fast. ZGM Marketing Inc. (22:07.559) K-12 schools are trying to figure out what to do. There's a major shift that has happened and it's kind of taken everyone off guard. It's not easy to figure out how to respond and generally large institutions like this are difficult to move and difficult to get. Carrie Robinson (22:24.51) And generally, large institutions like this are difficult to move and difficult to get everyone to move fast. So there's multiple things, I think, that need to be done in universities and how to respond. And I'm not sure if all universities will get it right. ZGM Marketing Inc. (22:30.856) fast. So there's multiple things I think that need to be done in universities and how to respond and I'm not sure that all universities will get it right and I'm not even sure if I'm right about what I think right now. Which is what I think is stopping a lot of people from making that decision. like I can't make the wrong decision. Well and it affects almost everything right? Every course just about has some sort of AI infection to it. One thing that I really Mohammad Keyhani (22:33.457) So there's multiple things I think that need to be done in universities and how to respond. And I'm not sure if all universities will get it right. And I'm not even sure if I'm right about what I think right now. I might take my time a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Robinson (22:46.789) Which is what I think is stopping a lot of people from making that decision. It's like, I can't be the one who's wrong. Somebody's gotta be wrong. just about has some sort of AI infection to One thing that I really, I think I'm doing right, is trying to now get students to the new edge of their capabilities. So if I can now build my list curation platform that I couldn't before, it's called blister by the way, LSTR. Is that out there? It's out there. It's LSTR.cc. I built it, I launched it, I deployed it, single person. Mohammad Keyhani (22:57.083) Well, one thing that I really, I think I'm doing right, trying to now get students to the new edge of their capabilities. So if I can now build my list curation platform that I couldn't before, it's called Lister by the way, lstr.cc. It's out there. It's launched lstr.cc. I built it, I launched it, I deployed it, single person. previously thought I couldn't. ZGM Marketing Inc. (23:00.911) Right. Trying to now get students to the new edge of their capabilities. So if I can now build my list platform that I couldn't before. It's called Lister by the way. LSTR.cc. It's out there. It's launched. LSTR.cc. I built it. I launched it. I deployed it. Single person. Wow. I previously thought I couldn't, but now I can. I had to rethink my identity. I had to rethink who I am, what I can do, what I can't do. Carrie Robinson (23:25.136) I previously thought I couldn't, but now I can. I had to rethink my identity. I had to rethink who I am, what I can do, what I can't do. I realized that I am now a cyborg. I am no longer a human. And that's what I tell my students. I tell them you are now a cyborg. Mohammad Keyhani (23:27.163) But now I can't. I had to rethink my identity. I had to rethink who I am, what I can do, what I can't do. I realized that I am now a cyborg. I'm no longer human. And that's what I tell my students. I tell them you are now all cyborgs, whether you like it or not. And if any of the professors in other classes are still treating you like humans, they're doing it wrong. You're going to just breeze through their classes because you're cyborgs sitting. Carrie Robinson (23:46.19) professors in other classes are still treating you like humans. They're doing it wrong. You're going to just breeze through their classes because you're a cyborg sitting in a setting that was designed for humans. So that's one thing that I'm saying. When professors tell me how I adapt my class to one of first things I ask them is, do you have any assignments that are not doable by humans? Mohammad Keyhani (23:54.969) in a setting that was designed for humans. So that's one thing that I'm saying when professors tell me like, how do I adapt my class to One of the first things I asked them is, do you have any assignments that are not doable by humans? Can only be done by cyborgs. Because your students are now superhuman, they're not just human. Do you have any assignments, even just one, that is not doable by pure ZGM Marketing Inc. (23:56.803) So that's one thing that I'm The first thing I ask them is, do you have any assignments that are not doable by humans, can only be done by cyborgs? Because your students are now superhuman, they're not just human. you have any assignments, even just one? Carrie Robinson (24:11.802) can only be done by cyborgs because your students are now superhuman they're not just human you have any inside that even just one that is not doable by pure ZGM Marketing Inc. (24:21.35) that is not doable by pure human skills and capabilities. So you have to have that. That's one of the first things that universities need to adapt to is to take students to this new edge of capability, which is the side work edge, not the human edge, because that's what businesses and industries are going to expect of them. We're already seeing statistics that new grads are finding it harder. Carrie Robinson (24:24.498) human skills and capabilities. So you have to have that. That's one of the first things that universities need to adapt to is to take students to this new edge of capability, which is the cyborg edge, not the human edge, because that's what businesses and industry is going to expect of them. We're already seeing statistics that new grads are finding it harder and harder to get jobs. Mohammad Keyhani (24:24.507) human skills and capabilities. So you have to have that. That's one of the first things that universities need to adapt to is to take students to this new edge of capability, which is the side work edge, not the human edge, because that's what businesses and industry is going to expect of them. We're already seeing statistics that new grads are finding it harder and harder to get jobs. A lot of employers are saying before you hire, ZGM Marketing Inc. (24:50.626) saying before you hire stop and ask an AI to it. There's a lot of that going on and that means our graduates are going to be less hireable if they are at the edge of human capabilities rather than the edge of cyber capabilities. Carrie Robinson (24:50.912) saying before you hire, stop and ask, can AI do it? There's a lot of that going on. And that means our graduates are going to be less hireable if they are at the edge of human capabilities rather Mohammad Keyhani (24:52.995) stop and ask can AI do it. There's a lot of that going on and that means our graduates are going to be less hireable if they are at the edge of human capabilities rather than the edge of cyber capabilities. So the first thing I think that universities need to adapt to is to realize that their task is now to take students to the edge of their cyber capabilities, not just human capabilities. Carrie Robinson (25:06.284) cyber capabilities. So the first thing I think that students need, that universities need to adapt to is to realize that their task is now to take students to the edge of their cyber capabilities, not just human capability. I love that. I do too. I really like that. It's like very, it's a very refreshing take, even though, you know, somebody listening to this might be like, what? But like we, know, as people who use these tools a lot and, and I feel like that's, ooh. ZGM Marketing Inc. (25:07.623) So the first thing I think that universities need to adapt to is to realize that their task is now to take students to the edge of their cyber capabilities, not just human capabilities. I love that. I do too. I really like that. It's a very refreshing take, even though some of the students are like, what? But we, as people, can use these tools a lot. I feel like that's what's done for me as writer is to be able to take me further in that and that's what we are going to be looking for when we hire people and why shouldn't we start learning that as soon as possible. Okay, but now something that some of the AI do-mers prefer when I say what universities need to do. There, yeah, a lot of people are Carrie Robinson (25:36.192) I feel like that's what's done for me as a writer is to be able to take me further in that. And that's what we are going to be looking for when we hire people. And why shouldn't you start learning that as soon as possible? OK. But now something that some of the AI do-mers prefer when I say what universities need to do. Yeah, a lot of people are. Mohammad Keyhani (25:37.253) Yeah. Okay. But now Something that some of the AI do-mers prefer when I say what universities need to do. A lot of people are thinking of AI as this visceral reaction among some of the professors and even some students that this is like some unholy thing that is sacrilegious or some sort of blasphemy that it's just, yeah, it's not even like an app I don't like. It's kind of this. ZGM Marketing Inc. (26:01.734) thinking of AI as this visceral reaction among some of the professors and even some students that this is like some unholy thing that is sacrilegious or some sort of blasphemy that it's just, yeah, it's not even like an app I don't like. It's kind of all this weird reactions on people have that it's just some violation of a. Carrie Robinson (26:02.072) thinking of AI as this visceral reaction among some of the professors and even some students that this is like some unholy thing that is sacrilegious or some sort of a blasphemy that it's just, yeah, it's not even like an app I don't like. It's kind of this weird reaction some people have that it's just some violation of the... Mohammad Keyhani (26:21.913) weird reactions on people have that it's just some violation of a sacred thing. And to some extent, I do agree that in some cases it's like that. You mentioned your child going to school and I have a young son as well who's just learning the basics of math in elementary school. I don't want them to use calculators. Teachers don't let them use calculators at that age for that. ZGM Marketing Inc. (26:27.873) sacred thing and to some extent I do agree that in some cases it's like that you mentioned your child going to school and I have a young son as well who's just learning the basics of math in elementary school I don't want to use calculators at that age for that kind of thing Carrie Robinson (26:28.138) sacred thing and to some extent I do agree that in some cases it's like that. You mentioned your child going to school and I have young son as well who's just learning the basics of math in elementary school. I don't want them to use calculators. Teachers don't let them use calculators at that age for that kind of thing. When you're learning two plus two, you don't use a calculator. You're just learning it, right? And I think there is some role to be played there in universities as well. We have classes in university where the goal of the class is to Mohammad Keyhani (26:51.665) kind of thing. When you're learning two plus two, you don't use a calculator, you're just learning it, right? And I think there is some role to be played there in universities as well. We have classes in the university where the goal of the class is to learn basic calculus. But we also have classes in the university where the goal of the class is to use spreadsheets, figure out how to use spreadsheets to do all the math. ZGM Marketing Inc. (26:54.854) You don't need to calculate when you're just learning it. And I think there is some role to be played there in universities as well. We have classes in the university where the goal of the class is to learn basic calculus. But we also have classes in the university where the goal of the class is to use spreadsheets, figure out how to use spreadsheets to do all the math. Carrie Robinson (27:11.064) basic calculus. But we also have classes in the university where the goal of the class is to use spreadsheets, figure out how to use spreadsheets to do all of that. Mohammad Keyhani (27:22.397) and, and similar thing is going to happen with AI assistance. There are going to be classes like many of my classes where the goal is to learn the AI, use the AI to get to the edge of your capabilities. But you can't get to the edge of your capabilities if you don't have a prerequisite, which is just being able to use your own human capabilities really well. If you, if you get. ZGM Marketing Inc. (27:23.945) And a similar thing is going to happen with AI assistance. There are going to be classes, like many of my classes, where the goal is to learn the AI, to use the AI to get to the edge of your capabilities. Carrie Robinson (27:24.078) And a similar thing is going to happen with AI assistance. There are going to be classes, like many of my classes, where the goal is to learn the AI, to use the AI to get to the edge of your capabilities. But you can't get to the edge of your capabilities if you don't have a prerequisite, which is just being able to use your own human capabilities really well. ZGM Marketing Inc. (27:37.817) But you can't get to the edge of your capabilities if you don't have a prerequisite, which is just being able to use your own human capabilities really well. you get into using a calculator too early or using the AI too early without having properly trained your own mental muscles, you're going to be like a Carrie Robinson (27:49.44) If you get into using a calculator too early or using the AI too early without having properly trained your own mental muscles, you're going to be like, I don't know, like an untrained person trying to use an exoskeleton. they haven't really learned how to. Mohammad Keyhani (27:51.351) into using a calculator too early or using the AI too early without having properly trained your own mental muscles. You're going to be like, I don't know, like an untrained person trying to use an exoskeleton. they haven't really learned how to this machine. ZGM Marketing Inc. (28:06.661) like an untrained person trying to use an exoskeleton. they haven't really learned how to operate this machine. You're gonna get into it and you're probably gonna break everything. You need to find yourself. I totally agree. And it comes back to this idea too, it's the common sense, it's the problem solvers, it's the people who have a good grasp on. Carrie Robinson (28:17.038) this machine, you're going to get into it and you're probably going to break everything. Great. it comes back to this idea too of like, it's the common sense, it's the problem solvers, it's the people who have a good grasp on just being able look at a situation and trying to find a solution, they're going to be the ones who do a good job at this. But if you just give somebody this tool and they don't have those skills of problem solving, for example, or critical thinking, then what are they going do with it? Mohammad Keyhani (28:18.543) You're gonna get into it and you're probably gonna break everything and maybe hurt yourself in the process. It's the common sense. ZGM Marketing Inc. (28:32.388) on just being able to look at a situation and trying to find a solution, they're gonna be the ones who do a good job of this. But if you just give somebody this tool and they don't have those skills of problem solving, for example, or critical thinking, then what are they gonna do Again, I don't wanna pick on my son. One day he may actually listen to one of these. When we were just getting going with Chat Cheap Tea, we were working on math. Mohammad Keyhani (28:33.137) just being able to work with a situation and try to find a solution, they're going to be the ones to do a good job of this. But if you just give somebody this tool and they don't have those skills of problem solving, for example, or critical thinking, then what do we do? Again, I don't want to take up this topic. One day, I I'm going to write this one. I'm very, very, Carrie Robinson (28:46.992) I don't want to pick on my son one day. When we were just getting on my chat-chick team, were working on math and there was two ropes you could take because it was just at the time when you could upload a picture. So he figured out that you take a picture of the problem and stick it up. And what he was doing, which was good, he was trying to solve it. And then he would take a picture of all of that and put it up in the chat-chick team. What am I doing wrong? ZGM Marketing Inc. (28:56.394) And there was there's two routes you can take because there was just at the time when you could upload a picture. So he he figured out that you take a picture of the problem and stick it up and what he was doing, which was good. He was trying to solve it. And then he would he would take a picture of all of that and put it up into Chachi Petit and go, what am I doing wrong? Which was, I think, a really good way to do it, because it would actually go on and show him where he's going wrong. I think the wrong way would be just take a picture of it before he does anything and go solve this for me and. Mohammad Keyhani (28:56.561) And there was two ropes you can take. It was just at the time we came to the world of the pictures. He figured out that you could take picture of the problem. And when he was doing it, which was good, he was trying to follow that. And then he would take picture of all of that without having to check, what am I doing wrong? Which was, I think a really good way to do it because it would actually go out into world of the American Civil Conflict. I think the one way would be just to take Carrie Robinson (29:13.902) I think a really good way to do it because it would actually go in and show him where he's going wrong. I think the wrong way would be just take a picture right before he does anything and go solve this for me and make it look like me. Yeah, make it look like I did it. In order to get students to do that, to use it as a learning tool rather than just Mohammad Keyhani (29:23.489) solve this for you than make it for other people. In order to get students to do that, to use it as a learning tool rather than just do the work for me kind of tool, one strategy that universities can do is to make it clear that the ultimate exam, the final exam, whatever it is, is going to be a no AI experience, AI banned. But during the course, ZGM Marketing Inc. (29:24.931) make it look like me, right? strategy that universities can do is to make it clear that the ultimate exam the final exam whatever it is is going to be a no AI experience AI ban but during the course have at it go try to use as much AI as you to learn the material and AI can be a very personalized tutor that in a way that your instructor may not have the time to pay you Carrie Robinson (29:35.95) One strategy that universities can do is to make it clear that the ultimate exam, the final exam, whatever it is, is going to be a no AI experience, AI ban. But during the course, have at it, try to use as much AI as you can to learn the material. And AI can be a very personalized tutor that Mohammad Keyhani (29:50.661) have at it, go like try to use as much AI as you can to learn the material. And AI can be a very personalized tutor in a way that your instructor may not have the time to pay personalized attention to you. But AI can do that and do it as much as you want. Carrie Robinson (30:03.096) instructor may not have the time to pay personalized attention to you. But AI can do that. And do it as much as you want. Well, I just got to a lot better job of like teaching my son how to factor trinomials than me. that just gave me PTSD. That's awful. Well, it gets complicated, right? If you're trying to remember this stuff. my gosh, I can't imagine. Man, don't know. I'm trying to learn this stuff. ZGM Marketing Inc. (30:05.484) personalize attention to you. Yeah. But they can do that. And do as much as you want. Well, it's going to do a lot better job of like teaching my son how to factor trinomials than I can. Right. Well, it gets complicated, right? You're trying to remember this stuff as an adult and it's like, man, I don't know. I'm trying to learn this stuff quickly so that I can teach you, but I'm probably, there's been times where I'm like, no, no, sorry, that's wrong. Forget I said all of that. Okay, let's try and figure it out together. I'm like, this is not helping. Carrie Robinson (30:30.742) so that I can teach you, I'm probably, there's been times where I'm like, nope, nope, sorry, that's wrong. Again, I said all of that, okay, let's try and figure it out together. I'm like, this is not helping. So basically that's the second thing I think universities should do, provide these structured learning environments where AI is banned when it needs to be banned. Mohammad Keyhani (30:32.433) There's been times where I'm like, oh no, sorry, that's wrong. Maybe I said from all around. Let's try and figure it out together. And like, this is not right. So basically that's the second thing I think universities should do, provide these structured learning environments where AI is banned when it needs to be banned and not banned when it needs to be not banned. Because businesses, once you get out of university and you're in the workforce, nobody has time to like say, okay, ZGM Marketing Inc. (30:45.155) structured learning environments where AI is banned when it needs to be banned and not banned when it needs to be not banned. businesses, once you get out of university and you're in the workforce, nobody has time to say, okay, let's practice this without AI now. So you get better. Businesses are at the leading edge. We need to move on here. Carrie Robinson (30:53.694) to be not bad. businesses, once you get out of university and you're in the workforce, nobody has time to say, okay, let's practice this without AI now. you get better. Businesses are at the leading edge. We need to move on here. They just want the results. They don't really care how you get there necessarily. But before they hire you, they would like to know that you've been trained somewhere where you have those. Mohammad Keyhani (31:01.669) let's practice this without AI now. Like, so you get better. Like businesses are at the leading edge. They like, we need to move on here. Like use whatever AI. Yeah. Yeah. But, but before they hire you, they would like to know that you've been trained somewhere where you have those skills because now in this environment, we don't have time to like wait for you to train your mental muscles, without chat GPT. Now, like we're moving at the speed of the leading edge here. ZGM Marketing Inc. (31:14.583) But before they hire you, would like to know that you train somewhere where you have those skills. Because now in this environment, we don't have time to wait for you to train your muscles without chat GPT now. We're at of the leading edge here. So that's why universities will, I think, have a role there. Carrie Robinson (31:20.014) skills because now in this environment we don't have time to wait for you to train your mental muscles without chat GPT now like we're moving at the speed of the leading edge here. So that's why universities will I think have a role there in helping. Mohammad Keyhani (31:31.121) So that's why universities will, I think, have a role there in helping train students without AI in some scenarios. And the last thing, the third thing I think universities will need to adapt to that will be needed in the marketplace is verification or validation that you have certain skills. We kind of already have that role, but it's getting harder and harder for businesses. Carrie Robinson (31:37.43) train students without AI in some scenarios. And the last thing, the third thing I think universities will need to adapt to that will be needed in the marketplace is verification or validation that you have certain skills. We kind of already have that role, but it's getting harder and harder for businesses to kind of know exactly what your capabilities are. ZGM Marketing Inc. (31:39.186) without AI in some scenarios. And the last thing, the third thing I think universities will have to, that will be needed in the marketplace is verification, validation that you have certain skills. You kind of already have that role, but it's getting harder and harder for businesses to kind of know exactly what your capabilities are because you're now at this augmenting Mohammad Keyhani (31:59.643) to kind of know exactly what your capabilities are because you are now at this augment of human and AI. And it's very hard for them to tell like, okay, how good are you really? Like, because it's getting like a messy landscape of AI and human capabilities and it's becoming harder and harder to judge you in terms of your capabilities and your... Carrie Robinson (32:03.918) Because you're now at this augment of human and AI. And it's very hard for them to tell, like, okay, how good are you really? Because it's getting like a messy landscape of AI and human capabilities and it's becoming harder and harder. ZGM Marketing Inc. (32:07.342) I Carrie Robinson (32:24.556) judge you in terms of your capabilities and your intelligence and things like that. And I think universities will have a role there to really be able to say, we did assessment in a way that would be hard for. ZGM Marketing Inc. (32:25.588) in of your capabilities and your intelligence and things like that. And I think universities will have a role there to really be able to say, we did assessment in a way that would be hard for workplaces to do. We did assessment, we verified that this person has these capabilities. They've this course, they managed to pass that exam without a... Mohammad Keyhani (32:28.891) intelligence and things like that. And I think universities will have a role there to really be able to say, we did assessment in a way that would be hard for workplaces to do. We did assessment and we verify that this person has these capabilities. They've taken this course, they managed to pass that exam without AI. They can now also use AI. Carrie Robinson (32:44.3) workplaces to do. We did assessment and we verify that this person has these capabilities. They can in this course, they manage to pass that exam without AI. They can now also use AI really well. We tested that in another exam. But the way that universities can verify someone's capabilities, I think, is still going to be very valuable in this environment. And I think they should double down on having that role. ZGM Marketing Inc. (32:55.863) they can now also use AI really as the diet on other things. The way that universities can verify someone's capabilities, I think, is still going to be very valuable in this context. And I think they should double down on having that because right now, they're sometimes not great at it. It's hard to, sometimes hard to rely on Mohammad Keyhani (32:58.363) really well, we tested that in another exam. The way that universities can verify someone's capabilities, I think, is still going to be very valuable in this environment. And I think they should double down on having that role because right now, they're sometimes not great at it. It's sometimes hard to rely on a university certificate. Carrie Robinson (33:14.126) because right now they're sometimes not great at it. It's hard to... sometimes hard to rely on a university certificate. mean there's, yeah, there's so much variance between two people who may have the same degree from the same institution. Right, or somebody who doesn't even have that degree and they're all saying, well I'm a gen AI expert. And it's like, one person might just like have used, I used chat GPT a couple times, I think I'm an expert. And somebody's like, no I've studied it, I've used it, I've used it in a course where I wasn't allowed to use it and then I got, you know, ZGM Marketing Inc. (33:26.302) certificate. I mean there's yeah there's so much variance between two people who may have the same degree from the same institution. Right. somebody who doesn't have that degree and they're all saying, well I'm a gen AI expert. Most people might just like have used, oh I used Jatchi B2 a couple times, I think I'm next. Somebody's like no I've studied it, I've used it, I've used it in a course where I wasn't allowed to use it and then I got you know I actually really have Mohammad Keyhani (33:28.465) Yeah, there's so much variance between two people who may have the same degree from the same institution. Right. somebody who doesn't even call that degree and they're all saying, oh, I'm a gendered expert. Yeah. it's like, well, once you know who how do you know? Oh, he's judging you. I think I'm next. Yeah. I'm so to do it in a course where I was in the lab, and I actually really haven't had people on it. Yeah. That's a point. Oh, yeah. ZGM Marketing Inc. (33:54.932) That's a point though. Yeah, just the evaluation is probably under the microscope now too, just because is it a good assessment tool currently and are there new things now that you need to assess and are maybe some of the softer skills more important in some cases because those are some of the like critical thinking and all these things that you're going to need now to really understand like sifting through misinformation is now just as part of our life and it, you know, Mohammad Keyhani (34:00.913) Is it a good assessment tool? Are there new things that will assess? And maybe some of this often feels more important in some cases because those are some of the critical thinking. All these things that we now sit through misinformation about for part of our life. There was a problem back in the day. We got all the information we could get. It wasn't that much available. Now there's too much. Carrie Robinson (34:11.47) Those are some of the critical thinking and all these things that you're going to need now to really understand that sifting through misinformation is now just a part of our life. There was a problem back in the day. We got all the information we could get because there wasn't that much available. Now there's too much and you have to figure out what's real, what's not. There's all this kind of stuff that just has changed. This is maybe the best explanation I've ever heard on how. ZGM Marketing Inc. (34:22.101) never was a problem back in the day. We got all the information we could get because it wasn't that much available. Now there's too much and you have to kind of figure out what's real, what's not. And there's all this kind of stuff that just has changed. So yeah, think this is maybe the best explanation I've ever heard on how education could potentially shift. Mohammad Keyhani (34:30.417) trying to figure out what's real, what's not. yeah, I think this is maybe the best experiment I've ever heard on how education Carrie Robinson (34:42.694) Yeah, because I live in that environment, like many other people worry about when I'm going to be replaced with AI. I actually asked my students in 2023 what... Mohammad Keyhani (34:44.069) Yeah, because I live in that environment. I like many other people worry about when I'm going to be replaced with AI. I actually asked my students in 2023, one of the questions I asked class was raise your hand if you think you prefer an AI professor here instead of me in five years time. So I had a few people raise their hand and I kept increasing the number in 10 years time, 15 years time. By the time I got to 20 years, almost everyone in class had their hand. ZGM Marketing Inc. (34:50.785) I actually asked my students in 2023, one of the questions I asked last month, raise your hand if you think you'd prefer an AI professor here instead of me. Carrie Robinson (34:56.202) I asked class was raise your hand if you think you'd prefer an AI professor here instead of me in five years time. So I had a few people raise their hand and I kept increasing the number in 10 years time, 15 years time. By the time I got to 20 years almost everyone in class had their hand raised. ZGM Marketing Inc. (35:02.253) in five years time. I had a few people raise their hand and I kept increasing the number in 10 years time, 15 years time. By the time I got to 20 years almost everyone in class had their hand raised. So their estimate of when they think they prefer to have an AI professor completely replace me is about 20 years. A lot of us professors are just kidding. You're busy looking at your list app. Come on, get going. Mohammad Keyhani (35:14.526) So their estimate of when they think they prefer to have an AI professor completely replace me is about 20 years. So a lot of us professors are just counting how much time we have left to retire. But it's not just professors. In many professions, people have this anxiety about what's going to happen to our job. Carrie Robinson (35:14.744) So their estimate of when they think they prefer to have an AI professor completely replace me is about 20 years. So a lot of us professors are just counting. 19. ZGM Marketing Inc. (35:32.067) Hahaha! Mohammad Keyhani (35:40.797) and our institutions, there's gonna be a role left to play for my kind of job, my kind of company. Carrie Robinson (35:48.142) Yeah, because there is obviously this line that's really popular when people say like, AI is not going to take your job, somebody who knows AI is going to take your job. But I feel like even that's quite fleeting now. It's like, yeah, somebody who knows AI is probably going to have your job for a while. And then AI is going to take your job. That's a very good question. So yeah, we're kind of, even those of us who feel like, OK, we got a handle on this, we're on top. Mohammad Keyhani (35:55.473) but I feel like that's quite fitting. It's like, some people think that AI is probably going to be a job for a while. Exactly. then AI is a change. That's a really good point. So yeah, even those of us who feel like, OK, we've got to handle on this, we're on top of the AI situation, can still maybe think about the next five years, really. ZGM Marketing Inc. (35:56.768) quite fleeting. It's like, yes, someone knows AI is coming into the office for a while. And then AI is going to take their job. ZGM Marketing Inc. (36:12.064) Even those of us who feel like, okay, we got to handle on this, we're on top of the AI situation, can still maybe think about like the next five years, really. If we try to think of 10 years, 20 years, it's just so difficult to predict what it's going to be like. And with so many tools and so many growing, it's so hard to know what's going happen in five years. And they can all take so many different... Carrie Robinson (36:16.96) situation can still maybe think about like the next five years really. Mohammad Keyhani (36:24.015) If we try to think of 10 years, 20 years, it's just so difficult to predict what it's going to be like. Carrie Robinson (36:24.046) If we try to think of 10 years, 20 years, it's just so difficult to predict what it's going to be like. And with so many tools and so many things growing exponentially, it's so hard to know what's going to happen in five years. And they can all take so many different routes and all these alternate timelines are probably starting up. My sci-fi brain gets going every once in while. But yeah, it's already almost hard to imagine what a year from now is going to be. It's just wild. Yeah. Mohammad Keyhani (36:36.273) they can all take some different risks and it was also a time where it's good thing. Starting off my side by bringing it up. It's already almost perfect. imagine what a year from now is going to be. It's just wild. Yeah. Well, that's just my own point. I do want to say that, well, I talked about universities because I'm a university professor, but I also see ZGM Marketing Inc. (36:53.088) Well that kind of puts us at time is there anything else you wanted to cover before we Carrie Robinson (36:53.934) That kind of puts us at time. Is there anything else you wanted to cover before we kind on? I do want to say that, well, I talked about universities because I'm a university professor, but I also see similar dynamics playing out in K-12, where we got different schools approaching AI differently. There was just news recently about, I think, Florida school going all in on like... Mohammad Keyhani (37:05.401) similar dynamics playing out in K-12 where we got different schools approaching AI differently. There was just news recently about I think a Florida school going all in on like getting AI to teach the students. There's this new study that's come out of Nigeria saying that, you know, just like a few hours of afterschool programming where AI tutored the students was as effective as like two years of ZGM Marketing Inc. (37:08.192) and Carrie Robinson (37:19.074) getting AI to teach the students. There's this new study that's come out of Nigeria saying that just like a few hours of after school programming where AI tutored the students was as effective as like two years of school. Well, and I saw who was it, the United Arab Emirates have basically said all schools have to have some form of AI learning involved. Yeah. Some people are trying to force it from above. And I think it's ZGM Marketing Inc. (37:31.712) as effective as like two years of school. Well, and I saw who was it that United Arab Emirates have basically said all schools have to have some form of AI learning involved. Yeah, yeah. Some people are trying to force it from above. And I think it's good to have some impetus, some sort of a push, some sort of a carrot and a stick from above, I think. But in many cases, there is nothing from above. Mohammad Keyhani (37:35.405) school. Some people are trying to force it from above and I think it's good to have some impetus, some sort of a push, some sort of a carrot and a stick from above, I think. But in many cases, there is nothing from above. Schools are just trying to figure out what to do themselves. Carrie Robinson (37:49.08) to have some impetus, some sort of a push, some sort of a carrot and a stick from above, think. But in many cases, there is nothing from above. Student schools are just trying to figure out what to do themselves. Sometimes it's about using the existing tools that are out there. Sometimes you need custom tools. That's one of the reasons I co- ZGM Marketing Inc. (38:00.368) student schools are just trying to figure out what to do themselves. Sometimes it's about using the existing tools that are out there, sometimes you need custom tools. That's one of the reasons I co-founded Honeybee Logic, which is a Mohammad Keyhani (38:04.793) Sometimes it's about using the existing tools that are out there. Sometimes you need custom tools. That's one of the reasons I co-founded Honey Bee Logic, which is a company that we've co-founded here in Calgary that is building AI tools for schools. We recently got covered by CBC News. It's pretty interesting. People are curious to see what schools are doing with AI. And so this school, one of the things that we thought, okay, Carrie Robinson (38:17.422) that is building AI tools for schools. amazing. We recently got covered by CBC News. It's pretty interesting. People are curious to see what schools are doing with AI. so that this school, one of the things that we thought, okay what are the custom things they need that you can't just go do with chat GPT easily. And we worked with the teachers themselves. We sat down and sort of prototype with them live. ZGM Marketing Inc. (38:18.345) building AI tools for schools. Where recently got covered by CDC and it's pretty interesting. People are curious to see what schools are doing with AI. And so that this school, one of the things that we thought, okay, what are the custom things that you can't just go do with chat GPT easily. And we worked with the teachers themselves, we sat down and sort of prototype with them live and because it's so easy to code these days, you can do that. Mohammad Keyhani (38:33.263) what are the custom things they need that you can't just go do with chat GPT easily. And we worked with the teachers themselves. We sat down and sort of prototyped with them live. And because it's so easy to code these days, you can do that. My next goal is to get the teachers to build with Replit themselves and then maybe move it to the company products. currently we're like sitting down and prototyping with them. Carrie Robinson (38:44.598) because it's so easy to code these days, you can do that. My next goal is to get the teachers to build with Replet themselves and then maybe... ZGM Marketing Inc. (38:47.952) My next goal is to get the teachers to build with Replet themselves and then maybe move it to the company products. currently we're like sitting down and prototyping with them and it's a really magical experience because a lot of schools have no experience building custom software. Carrie Robinson (38:53.078) to the company products, but currently we're like sitting down and prototyping with them. And it's a really magical experience because a lot of schools have no experience building custom software. They don't even know that this is a thing you could do because that's mostly an enterprise thing like enterprises with much larger budgets engage in custom software development typically. But we're sort of trying to make it affordable for schools. And when teachers sit down with you and say, we can actually like Mohammad Keyhani (38:58.265) And it's a really magical experience because a lot of schools have no experience building custom software. They don't even know that this is a thing you could do because that's mostly an enterprise thing. Enterprises with much larger budgets engage in custom software development typically. But we're sort of trying to make it affordable for schools. And when teachers sit down with you and say, we can actually ask for that feature and then you can build it. And it's pretty cool. ZGM Marketing Inc. (39:03.762) they don't even know that this is a thing you could do because that's mostly an enterprise thing. Enterprises with much larger budgets engage in custom software development typically. But we're sort trying to make it affordable for schools. And when teachers sit down with you and say, we can actually ask for that feature and then you can build it, it's a pretty cool experience. So we work with them to really figure out what they needed. Carrie Robinson (39:23.092) ask for that feature and then you can build it. It's a pretty cool experience. we worked with them to really figure out what they needed and Mohammad Keyhani (39:27.671) experience. So we worked with them to really figure out what they needed and what removed their pain points. And a couple of things that we built is one is a lesson planning tool that works with their specific pedagogical philosophy that their school wants to follow. And another is a sort of a report card assistant where it helps them convert all their notes on students into a nice report for parents. Carrie Robinson (39:32.834) their pain points. And a couple of things that we've built is one is a lesson planning tool that works with their specific pedagogical philosophy that their school wants to follow. And another is a sort of a report card assistant where it helps them convert all their notes on students into a nice report for parents. And these two things, just these two things take hours of work from teachers. And outside of, you know, that's like after, ZGM Marketing Inc. (39:33.993) the that we built is one is a lesson planning tool. that works with their specific pedagogical philosophy that their school wants to follow. And another is a sort of a report card assistant where it helps them convert all their notes on students into a nice report for parents. And these two things, just these two things take hours of work from teachers. And outside of, you know, that's like after an hour's work. Yeah. And we always sometimes Mohammad Keyhani (39:54.673) And these two things, just these two things, take hours of work from teachers. And outside of, you know, that's an after, an hour to work from there, yeah. Yeah, and we always complain about our teachers not having enough time, being under-resourced. It's not about taking their jobs away, at least not yet. I don't know what's going to happen in 20 years. But right now what we're seeing is that with these tools, they are empowered, are liberated. Carrie Robinson (40:02.778) hours work. We always complain about our teachers not having enough time, it's not about taking their jobs away, at least not yet. Right now what we're seeing is that with these tools they are empowered, they're liberated, can do better work, can more attention to their students. ZGM Marketing Inc. (40:07.008) about our teachers not having enough time, being under resourced. It's not about taking their jobs away, at least not yet. I don't know what's going happen in 10 years. But right now what we're seeing is that with these tools, they are empowered, are liberated, they can do better work, they can pay more attention to their students. Mohammad Keyhani (40:23.429) They can do better work. They can pay more attention to their students. It can produce higher quality material and communications with parents. An interesting thing was this debate we had around the report card assistant was, should we put a disclaimer at the end where it says AI helped in the generation of this report? And ZGM Marketing Inc. (40:28.05) can produce higher quality material and communications with parents. An interesting thing was this debate we had around the report card assistant was should we put a disclaimer at the end where it says AI helped the generation of this report and Carrie Robinson (40:28.322) can produce higher quality material and communications with parents. An interesting thing was this debate we had around the report card assistant was, should we put a disclaimer at the end where it says AI helped in the generation of this report? And one of the discussions we had was, no, we probably shouldn't do that because that would be an offloading of responsibility. And I my students that as well. You are ultimately responsible for the text that you produce. I will hold you accountable. I don't want you to tell me that you co-authored this with AI or AI helped you because I can't go hold the AI accountable. That's an offloading. ZGM Marketing Inc. (40:48.318) One of the discussions we had was, no, we probably shouldn't do that because that would be an offloading of responsibility. And I tell my students that as well. You are ultimately responsible for the text that you produce. I will hold you accountable. I don't want you to tell me that you co-authored this with AI or AI helped you because they can't go hold the AI accountable. That's an offloading of responsibility. So ultimately, the teacher is responsible. They have to review. Mohammad Keyhani (40:48.685) One of the discussions we had was, no, we probably shouldn't do that because that would be an offloading of responsibility. And I tell my students that as well. You are ultimately responsible for the text that you produce. I will hold you accountable. I don't want you to tell me that you co-authored this with AI or AI helped you because I can't go hold the AI accountable. That's an offloading of responsibility. So ultimately, the teacher is responsible. They have to review what Carrie Robinson (41:11.182) So ultimately the teacher is responsible. They have to review what text has been produced and edit it and make sure it is finally what they want to say in the way that they want to say it. If you put those sort of disclaimers in there that AI helped. ZGM Marketing Inc. (41:17.15) text has been produced and edited and made sure it is finally what they want to say the way that they want to say it. If you put those sort of things in there that AI helped or whatever, it's kind of a sense of responsibility that I don't like. I think people should recognize how accountable they are for the text, even though AI helped create it. And that will help. Mohammad Keyhani (41:17.371) Text has been produced and edited and make sure it is finally what they want to say in the way that they want to say it. If you put those sort of disclaimers in there that AI helped or whatever, it's kind of a sense of offloading of responsibility that I don't like. I think people should recognize how accountable they are for the text, even though AI helped create it. And that will help them or drive them to take it more seriously. Carrie Robinson (41:29.742) It's kind of a sense of offloading of responsibility that I don't like. I think people should recognize how accountable they are for the text, even though AI helped create it. And that will help them. ZGM Marketing Inc. (41:43.101) I think that's a bit of a Mind shift to we talked about this is AI is tool and it's just like you wouldn't say hey made using autocorrect right like it's not a It's not something you need to disclaim if it's coming if you believe everything you're writing like I think right Carrie Robinson (41:43.308) drive them to take it more seriously. think that's a bit of a mind shift too. talked about this as AI is tool and it's just like you wouldn't say, hey, made using auto correct, right? Like it's not something you need to disclaim if it's coming, if you believe everything you're I'm going to steal that phrasing. I like that a lot. Mohammad Keyhani (41:46.811) to. Mohammad Keyhani (41:53.657) Yeah. It's not something you need. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't have that. That's something that is. Carrie Robinson (42:03.158) Cause it's, well that happened recently with Dan at the office and somebody just made something with AI and as he was presenting it, he was like, AI put that in there. was like, well then why didn't you take it out? That's something that is starting to happen and you have to show people that that's not acceptable. It's like if an investor says that your numbers are wrong, you're like, my spreadsheet did that. ZGM Marketing Inc. (42:19.969) It's like if an investor says hey your numbers are wrong. Mohammad Keyhani (42:20.653) starting to happen and you have to show people that that's not acceptable. It's like if an investor says, your numbers are wrong, you're like, my spreadsheet did that. You can't do that. Two factors, I'm to do that for sure. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you. ZGM Marketing Inc. (42:28.381) Oh my spreadsheet did that. Oh yeah. You can't do that. Human factors don't need to be there for sure. All right. Well, Mohammed, thank you very much for coming on to the podcast. think we can let you get back to, you, you, what are you looking forward to for the rest of the couple of days here? Well, I can only say today, tomorrow I'm going to Edmonton. Carrie Robinson (42:34.611) The human factor still needs to be there for sure. All right. Well, thank you very much. That's awesome. I think what you get back to are you you what are you looking forward to for the rest of couple of days here? Well, I can only say today tomorrow I'm going to Edmonton for the upper bound conference. Me too. Speaking there. Me too. Mohammad Keyhani (42:43.683) I think we'd like to get back to Ari. What are you looking forward to the rest of the double K-Day event? Well, I can only say today, tomorrow I'm going to Edmonton for the upper bound conference. Me too. Speaking there. too. Actually there I'm presenting in my role as the honeybee logic person. think it's around two, three in the afternoon. But I'm going to be co-presenting with the ZGM Marketing Inc. (43:02.333) cool. Carrie Robinson (43:03.886) What time is that? I think it's around 2, 3 in the afternoon. Okay, interesting. I'm going to be co-presenting with the superintendent and principal at our first client school that we worked with, the Connect Charter School. So that's going to be fun. Cool. But today in Ventures, I'm going to be speaking in my role as professor at... ZGM Marketing Inc. (43:12.636) the superintendent and principal at our first client school that we worked with, the Kinnick Charter School. So that's going to be fun. But today, in Ventures, I'm going to be speaking in my role as a professor at Haskell School of Business, having a sort of a fireside chat with Danielle. Mohammad Keyhani (43:12.837) the superintendent and principal at our first client school that we worked with, the Connect Charter School. So that's going to be fun. But today in Ventures, I'm going to be speaking in my role as professor at Haskeen School of Business, having a of a fireside chat with Danielle Gifford, who is the director of AI at PWC. And we together, me and her, taught the two courses, two AI courses that were available in the MBA program. Carrie Robinson (43:25.838) Haskin School of Business, having a sort of a fireside chat with Danielle Gifford, who's the director of AI at PWC. And we together, me and her, taught the two courses, the two AI courses that were available in the MBA program this year in Haskin. It was the first time we had actually two different AI courses that you could take. And the students who took advantage of that were really happy with it. That's awesome. What time's up? It's a good experience. ZGM Marketing Inc. (43:32.761) See? Mohammad Keyhani (43:43.025) this year in Heskain. It was the first time we had actually two different AI courses that you could take and the students who took advantage of that were really happy with it. that was... What's your setup? I think it starts around 2.30 or 2, probably 2.30. Nice. Yeah, we actually have a new one next season. Oh, nice. Yeah. Oh, she's a great speaker as well. Well, good job. Well, thanks very much. ZGM Marketing Inc. (43:48.479) Cool. What time is that at today? Oh cool. Carrie Robinson (43:55.744) I think it starts around 2.30 or 2.00. Nice. Yeah, we might actually have Danielle on next season. Oh, nice. Yeah, so that's awesome. She's a great speaker as well. Oh, good to know. OK, well, thanks very much. And yeah, have a great afternoon. Thank you. Thanks for doing this, guys. This was fun. Awesome. Sweet. That was great. ZGM Marketing Inc. (44:02.844) Okay, well thanks very much and yeah have a great afternoon. Mohammad Keyhani (44:11.621) Thank you. Thanks for doing this, guys. This was fun.