14. Startups in the Age of AI | Sabaa Quao

Saab Quao (00:00.206) Are we going to be on camera? Peter (00:01.243) You're going to be on camera, we'll fix that right away. you can adjust the screen however you want to make sure you're framing right. I'm just going to check levels real quick. Hello. Yeah. OK. That's good. I'm sorry. And it's also the worst. It can be the worst lighting or the smallest room that they can possibly find. So, yeah, I just adjust that how you want. think the. Saab Quao (00:13.26) Hello. Saab Quao (00:18.062) I'm sorry. It's on. Should be a solid red light. Yes. Peter (00:37.202) So I got a little intro and then we can just reform. Anything you want to change or if you want to adjust, just give me a little pause so that I can cut. And I'll give you a copy of this ahead of time so you can have a look through. So, okay, I'll just get started. So this is the most awkward formal part of the whole thing and then we'll get back into it. Any other questions? Is there anything we want to talk about in general? Saab Quao (00:37.346) So I got a little intro and I hope this will be more convincing if you want to change or if you want to adjust. me a little pause. I'll get you a copy of this anytime soon. Amazing. So this is the most concrete fall part of the whole thing and we'll get back to it. Any other questions? Is there anything you want to talk about in general? Well, you have you probably have a list of things that you want to talk about. So maybe I'm just going to jot them down if you want to tell me the three or four things you want to cover. OK, so I kind of wanted to dig into, again, your entrepreneurial life. OK. A little bit about how you manage, which because again, I need this in my own way. How you are going with all the things that you are going to be doing. Each one, just in terms of what you're doing. Yeah. Peter (01:06.546) Sure, yeah, yeah, okay, so well I kind of wanted to dig into again your entrepreneurial life a little bit around How are you managing which because again I might even need this in my own life How you're juggling all these things that you got going and maybe digging into a little bit of each one Just to tell us a little bit about what you're doing I wouldn't mind talking a bit about the agency model. And then probably just some broad strokes, like how your approach to AI with companies, how you feel about where things are going, the good and the bad, right? I think you'd have a great perspective on that. And anything you want to touch on that you are super passionate about, can absolutely add in. Saab Quao (01:34.446) I wouldn't mind talking about the ultimate human component. And that probably just for us to go to study how the term approach to AI with the common sense. How do you feel about where things are going, and bad, right? have a great perspective on that. And then I it's essential that you learn super passionately human psychology. Peter (02:01.938) And probably there might be follow ups like as you dig into some of these, you know, the things that you got going and I learned about them on kind of on the fly. There might be a few like questions here and there. Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. Saab Quao (02:07.082) Okay. Okay. Sounds good. I'm ready. Yeah. Okay. Welcome to the artificial breakdown. Peter (02:19.985) Okay Welcome to another edition of artificial breakdown. I'm Peter Bishop. Unfortunately, Carrie can't be with us today. She's talking at in upper bound but she's furiously driving on her way back in the efforts to hopefully not be Again, I'm give that another go one sec Welcome to artificial breakdown. We're live at adventures. Unfortunately Carrie can't be with us today. She's Saab Quao (02:31.713) in upper bounds, but it appears to be driving really fast in an effort to hopefully not be... Oh, I got fired into that. Oh, sorry. Welcome to our official breakdown. We're live at Adventures. Unfortunately, Jerry can't be with us today, so he's doing a presentation in upper bounds. He's driving an Arctic Lorry, so we will see if he has any accession. But I'm thrilled to have... Peter (02:49.905) doing a presentation at upper bound and is furiously driving back to Calgary. So we will see her for the afternoon sessions. But I'm thrilled to have Sabah Kuao with me today. And he has an impressive resume. I was going through LinkedIn, trying to grab all the titles and everything he's working on and getting a little PTSD with my own kind of resume because we have similar kind of ventures, but it's nice to see another entrepreneur. Saab Quao (03:00.63) Saba, Kual, working today. And he has press of resume. I was going through LinkedIn, from all the titles and everything he's working on. And getting a little bit of a gift with my own kind of resume. We have similar ventures, but it's going to another entrepreneur like him. So we have the founding president plus co-adventure studio. Also the co-founder of Wealthy Works Daily. Peter (03:19.491) like him. we have is the founding president at Plusco Venture Studios. Also the co-founder of Wealthy Works Daily and the executive director and co-founder of Film Minute as I catch them all. Well, welcome to the podcast. Yeah, like I mentioned as I was going through all the things you have on the go. Saab Quao (03:29.07) and executive director and co-founder of Filmish as I kept them all. Yes, you did. Well, welcome to the project. Thank you. Yeah, like I mentioned as I was going through all the things we've got to go, I felt like I was reading a version of it, another version of myself. There's just so many side effects. I think that's kind of like you come across people who love the entrepreneurial life and just constantly coming up with Peter (03:45.709) I felt like I was reading a version of another version of myself with just so many side hustles. And I think that's kind of, I come across people who love the entrepreneurial life and just constantly coming up with new ideas, new ventures. How are you juggling all this? Saab Quao (03:58.658) you might need those bachelors. How are you traveling? Peter (04:03.939) So I think there's a difference between early... Saab Quao (04:04.046) So I think there's a difference between early in my career as an entrepreneur versus now. So in my early 20s, start of the digital era, starting my own firm, the grind was all me. We worked seven days a week. You did an overnighter once or twice a week. You hit your deadlines. But so much pressure was on me. But as you get to this stage where you just can't grind the same way, Peter (04:16.881) The grind was all me. Once or twice a week you hit the deadlines, but so much pressure was on me. But as you get to this stage, where you just can't grind the same, but also the pace is different. When we talk about the digital era was one thing, but the pace of the AI era is frighteningly much faster. So you would actually burn yourself out. think part of the professional skill is to think about pacing differently. And so with the Venture Studio, Saab Quao (04:33.666) But also the pace is different. When we talk about the digital era was one thing, but the pace of the AI era is frighteningly much faster. So you would actually burn yourself out. think part of the professional skill is to think about pacing differently. And so with the venture studio, because I'm working with seven startups, they each have their founders. Peter (04:52.27) Because I'm working with seven startups, they each have their founders. So I am not in the day-to-day grind. I'm there to think about the bridge between what they're doing in AI and fintech and the enterprise applications or use cases that are relevant to cassette and plus company clients. it just doesn't take the same physical toll on me. And I'll say it's a physical toll because it's just the intensity of grind from startup. Saab Quao (04:58.156) So I am not in the day-to-day grind. I'm there to think about the bridge between what they're doing in AI and fintech and the enterprise applications or use cases that are relevant to cassette and plus company clients. So it just doesn't take the same physical toll on me. And I'll say it's a physical toll because it was just that intensity of grind for a startup. And I'm much more of the facilitator and the strategist. Peter (05:21.116) and I'm much more of the facilitator and the strategist. Yes, I'm into co-pitch with them and collaborate, but it's a much easier role as an entrepreneur. Saab Quao (05:25.486) Yes, I'm into co-pitch with them and collaborate, but it's a much easier role as an entrepreneur than in my 20s. So we are only going to look at companies that already have some Peter (05:35.808) I get that. So, so, plus go venture is kind of that facilitator to help with kind of what stage of companies are you talking about? Peter (05:50.892) that already have some expression or iteration of what they're going to build. I won't take on anyone that's just, have an idea. Because really what I'm trying to think about is the speed to commercialization that is useful for some clients or categories in our portfolio. So I have to be able to walk in in short order with a prototype or an articulation of the use case in a way that they can see, touch and understand and build empathy for in terms of this is useful. Saab Quao (05:53.112) expression or iteration of what they're going to build. I won't take on anyone that's just, have an idea. Because really what I'm trying to think about is a speed to commercialization that is useful for some clients or categories in our portfolio. So I have to be able to walk in in short order with a prototype or an articulation of the use case in a way that they can see, touch and understand and build empathy for in terms of this is useful for our business or for our audience. Peter (06:20.655) for our business and for our audience. So the companies range in terms of early stage, but some of them are already generating a few million dollars in revenue. So they're sustaining themselves. And my job is to figure out, well, is there an application or an extension of that business that might be three, four, five, or 10 times larger than what they're doing now? Saab Quao (06:23.182) So the companies range in terms of from early stage, but some of them are already generating a few million dollars in revenue. So they are sustaining themselves. And my job is to figure out, well, is there an application or an extension of that business that might be three, four, five, or 10 times larger than what they're doing now? Right. Saab Quao (06:52.256) Okay. Peter (06:54.767) Okay So you are you're still connected to cassette that was another line item on your LinkedIn But it's kind of a dotted line. Is that right? Saab Quao (06:55.522) So you are still being active at Cassette, that was another line I had to monitor. Yes. I spent my last role at Cassette was Chief Creative and Innovation Officer. And so I did two and a half years as Chief Creative and then Chief Creative and Innovation Officer. And what it did was it gave me comparative insight across such a wide range of clients and projects. That was the first piece that was... You know, it's an incredibly privileged position to be in, to hear all the different kinds of problems that companies are facing specifically around marketing. The second piece of that came out of, think of when chat GPT started and hit the public consciousness. And suddenly there was this parlance or this noise, I'll call it around like agencies are, ah, you're in trouble. it's like, no, they're not. But clients started to ask for different things. Peter (07:24.559) you know, privileged position to be in, to hear all the different kinds of problems that companies are facing, specifically around marketing. The second piece of that came out of, think of when chat GPT started and hit the public consciousness, and suddenly there was this parlance, or this noise, I'll call it, around, like, agencies are in trouble, and they're not. Clients started to ask for different things. Can you come and give us a point of view on where and how we're going to use AI for marketing? How do we think about creative technology? How do we think through and work through the use cases that are going to change our business? So there's one thing to have our own industry's existential worry, let alone clients' and their own existential worries, and looking to companies like Cassette for leadership or thought leadership, but in a very practical way. Because remember, agencies create real things. Saab Quao (07:53.048) Can you come and give us a point of view on where and how we're going to use AI for marketing? How do we think about creative technology? How do we think through and work through the use cases that are going to change our business? So there's one thing to have our own industry's existential worry, let alone clients and their own existential worries and looking to companies like Cosette for leadership or thought leadership, but in a very practical way. Cause remember agencies create real things. Peter (08:22.006) So we don't just stay talking. We great things that are actually going to have some kind of impact on the audience. As the cadence started to rise on those kinds of requests, what I pitched to the CEO and the CFO is we have so many use cases that we really can't be dilettantes about AI. Saab Quao (08:22.134) So we don't just stay talking. We create things that are actually going to have some kind of impact with the audience. As the cadence started to rise on those kinds of requests, what I pitched to the CEO and the CFO is we have so many use cases that we really can't be dilettantes about AI. And so if I can work with a handful of AI and FinTech companies who this is what they do. Peter (08:43.137) And so I can work with a handful of AI and FinTech companies who this is what they do. It is a faster way for us to gain depth of skill, but bridge that into the use cases of our clients and the categories that they're in. And so we incorporated the Venture Studio in November. Saab Quao (08:52.544) It is a faster way for us to gain depth of skill, but bridge that into the use cases of our clients and the categories that they're in. So we incorporated the Venture Studio in November. I became president of the Venture Studio in December. And here we are at the six month mark. And I'll share with you some of the momentum, but it's fast. But that was the transition from chief creative and innovation officer into becoming president of the Venture Studio. Peter (09:07.534) President of Venture Studio in December and here we are at the six month mark and I'll share with you some of the momentum but it's fast. That was the transition from Chief Creative Innovation Officer into becoming President of the Venture Studio. Interesting. and then where the companies that were, was the business development side companies are coming to cassette that no longer fit that model a little bit moving more towards this new model now so is that the referral or are you outgoing getting your own? Saab Quao (09:22.147) Thanks. Saab Quao (09:33.646) Is that a referral for any health care in your own businesses? The businesses had to fit an overall thesis. One, I am only dealing with AI and fintech companies. And the fintech is, you know, I'm a fintech entrepreneur for at least five years now. So it's a category that I know and where and how that creates value. And AI was just in terms of we are seeing this fastest movement of an industry. Peter (09:37.198) businesses. Saab Quao (10:02.336) in technology that we've ever seen and we dare not miss. And so from a new revenue, new business models and use cases, it was a reason to say, let's only look at these two kinds of companies. How I found the first seven companies ends up being extending very directly from a lot of the relationships I have already in the startup community. And so many people approach me and think, how would you consider coming on board as a founder or could you come? Peter (10:04.878) dare not miss right and so from a new revenue new business models it was a reason to say let's only look at two kinds of companies how I found the first seven companies ends up being extending very a lot of relationships I have already in the startup community and so many people approach me and I guess how would you consider coming as a founder or could you come So now my answer is no. If you fit my thesis, I want to pull you into this cohort. And you'll hear me use the word cohort. And that's very influenced by Rotman, Creative Destruction Lab. Saab Quao (10:31.63) And so now my answer is no, but if you fit my thesis, I want to pull you into this cohort. And you will hear me use the word cohort. And that's very influenced by Rotman's creative destruction lab, DMZ, district three, where they bring in groups of companies or Y Combinator. And there are these groups of companies that are brought through as cohorts. So I said, let me have a starting cohort. And I have seven because I said, Peter (10:47.725) DMZ, District 3, where they bring in groups of companies, or Y Combinator, and there are these groups of companies that are brought through as cohorts. So I said, let me have a starting cohort, and I have seven, because I said that's probably all I can manage as I'm figuring out the model. But the idea then is to continue rolling those cohorts as you go. And cohorts... Saab Quao (11:00.238) That's probably all I can manage as I'm figuring out the model. But the idea then is to continue rolling these cohorts as you go. And cohorts are a way for you to dive into the different verticals, different kinds of AI, different kinds of FinTech, but they also have an economic value that's worth tracking. And the influence on the economic value was based on, I had spent a day at Rotman's Creative Destruction Lab. I was invited as a guest to review the 18. Peter (11:09.255) are a way for you to dive into the different verticals, different kinds of AI, different kinds of fintech, but they also have an economic value that's worth tracking. And the influence on the economic value was based on, I had spent a day at Rotman's Creative Destruction Lab. invited as a guest to review the 18 AI companies that were vying for a spot. I saw some stunning and impressive things. Yeah. Saab Quao (11:30.176) AI companies that were vying for a spot. And I saw some stunning and impressive things probably six months or a year before these things even hit the market. And then I said to the head of the lab in Toronto, Avi Goldfarb, said, how much equity value has been raised over the 11 or 12 years of the Creative Destruction Lab? How much equity value has been raised from all the companies that went through? And he said, $40 billion. Peter (11:50.516) Yeah Saab Quao (12:01.066) And that was an aha to me about the economic value of a group of startups at the start of an industry. There is nothing that an agency is doing right now that is going to reach $40 billion in value. So it made me think about collections and collections of startups and Peter (12:20.006) No, no. Saab Quao (12:28.982) I have to say that has hyper accelerated how quickly I learned something because they're in so deep in the verticals that they're working in. There was nothing I was doing that was requiring me to learn that fast. But this pace of learning gives you a sense of where an industry is going, where the opportunities are and the comparative insight in terms of where and how we're going to apply and use these for some of our clients. Right. And so we've, and as I said, in six months, we've started to rack up some wins. Peter (12:33.868) because they're in so deep in the verticals that they're working in. There was nothing I was doing that was requiring me to learn that fast. But this pace of learning gives you a sense of where an industry is going, where the opportunities are, and the comparative insight in terms of learning. Right That's amazing I can just imagine the I Always find is invigorating being around startups the ideas and just the energy and the excitement You know it takes years and years to beat that light out of your eyes in an agency, right? Where there's I just think this there's something energizing being around those people Saab Quao (12:59.537) I can just say that. I always find it's invigorating to be a studio. It's the energy and the excitement. You know, it takes years for a feet out of your eyes and you can't see right where it is. I just think there's something. Absolutely. Well, you know, in my 30 year career, I think I've been an entrepreneur 90 % of it. So it's so ingrained in me and so familiar. And I know what to do with it. I know what to do with that energy. I know what to do with things as they're taking shape. And then really the gain I have on having 30 years of experience is helping them shape it faster in some way that can commercialize at a larger scale. Yeah. Peter (13:22.316) So it's so ingrained in me and so familiar and I know what to do with it. I know what to do with that energy. I know what to do with things as they're taking shape. really the gain I have on having 30 years of experience is having them shape it faster in some way that can commercialize it. Yeah, what are some of the common takes you see them making like when you're dealing with entrepreneurs at that level? Saab Quao (13:46.606) a big thing that we're dealing with. Peter (13:55.889) All of them are going to ask by investors how they're going to find their audience. Some of them are going to end up spending too much on the market. So when you think of your cost of acquisition of a new client, I think that's the first mistake many of them are making. Saab Quao (13:55.926) All of them are going to be asked by their investors how they're going to find their own. Some of them are going to end up spending too much money on marketing. So you think of your cost of acquisition of a new client. think that's the first mistake many of them are making. And I think some of the influence of that mistake was you saw the rise of DTC companies because of the pandemic and all these companies saying, well, I'm going to build my own thing and go direct to consumer. But the cost of acquisition becomes this real. Peter (14:14.987) And I think some of the influence on that mistake was you saw the rise of DTC companies because of the pandemic. All these companies said, I'm going to build my own thing, you're a direct consumer. The cost of acquisition becomes this real difficult and expensive thing. Like, so you have a product and you say, I'm going to go out and find those hundred thousand customers. Saab Quao (14:32.002) difficult and expensive thing. Let's say you have a product and you say, well, I'm going to go out and find my first hundred thousand customers. You and I as marketers know what it takes to go and find those hundred thousand customers, but an entrepreneur who is strong in technology or in FinTech or engineering may not have a sense of that marketing cost. So that's one mistake where I'd say, yeah, a hundred thousand people as customers is hard to do. So that's the first one. Peter (14:40.037) Right Yeah Saab Quao (15:01.582) The second thing is associating that with a cost. And the third thing about that is it might not be the most valuable thing that you're doing. So I spent enough time in B2B and the B2B market is sometimes five to 10 times larger than the consumer market. So I do have one or two pitches where because we've taken a B2B orientation, Peter (15:09.736) It might not be the most valuable thing that you're doing. So I spent enough time in B2B. sometimes five to ten times larger than the consumer market. So I do have one or two pitches where because we've taken a B2B orientation, the companies in the receiving end of the pitch might already have 10 million customers. I said it was hard to find 100,000. Good luck finding Saab Quao (15:30.818) the companies in the receiving end of the pitch might already have 10 million customers. Right. I said it was hard to find a hundred thousand. Good luck finding 10 million customers. Yeah. So I sometimes push them to an enterprise grade thinking about their business because I said, if we figure that out, I think I can get you there faster. Yeah. Peter (15:43.37) So I sometimes push them to an enterprise grade of thinking about their business. Peter (15:53.902) Yeah, one to many versus one to one, right? Yeah, isn't that interesting? I think it's I've seen different kind of mentalities where there's this sometimes it's just tunnel vision with an entrepreneur where they are just like, I've got I know, I know it all I'm going to do this and you can like, arrows kind of hit off the plates of armor and they bounce off where there's others who are like sponges. Saab Quao (16:00.846) I've seen different kinds of Sometimes it's just television. I've got, I know, I know it all. arrows off the plates of art. Peter (16:19.305) Want to listen to everybody and listen listen to some of the great advice I was saying the other day It's like if someone has done this for 20 years and you were just starting you should be hanging on every word they say because think of all the knowledge packed into a few sentences It's amazing. So why wouldn't you listen to that? But there is some Saab Quao (16:22.894) If someone has done this 20 years and you were... You're pointing out, you you come with this backfill of insight and experience. And one of the things I talk about when I, when I switched to my strategy, I talk about contextual awareness, saying sometimes they're so focused on their solution that they haven't read the field, right? Because they haven't read the field, they don't see it's a good thing and a bad thing. Peter (16:41.236) this backfill of insight and experience. And one of the things I talk about when I switch to my strategy, I talk about contextual awareness. Yeah Right Yeah Saab Quao (16:59.672) They sometimes don't see the opportunity or they don't see the pitfall. They just see this brilliance of this narrow solution that they've built. It's sometimes me coming in as an outsider. It's about saying, you know, have you thought about this? And then I bring them the comparative insight from all the client work that we're doing. I'll say, and here's why I'm saying that. Because I might've seen a hint of it or shade of it or an overlap with one of the clients that we have. Peter (17:16.42) Yeah Saab Quao (17:27.566) Because that has more clients than anyone in Canada. As a marketing and advertising agency. So I'm not coming in blind and if I can avoid a pitfall or identify an opportunity sooner, that's to the benefit of the startup. Peter (17:29.609) yeah. Well, and there's something we said for objectivity is something that you have for a short while, right? And it's something that's so valuable. And that's why agencies are generally, even if you have an in-house agency, I think it's sometimes good to get an external one to come in and just call spades, spades and just, they don't know, they don't know the background, the Saab Quao (17:57.134) They don't know what the matter is with politics. All that's going to be saying something that they may or not be seeing because they're kind of seeing things. So you've also pointed out something that agencies know how to do well. We've all done enough work in enough categories that we are often sitting on comparative insight that we're not using. Some clients aren't asking and they don't care. But we are sitting on that knowledge. How many industry categories have you worked in in the last 20 years? Peter (17:59.515) politics, all that stuff and they can say something that the other team may or may not see because they're kind of heads in the trees, right? Peter (18:12.6) Right God, I couldn't tell you. Yeah. Yes. Saab Quao (18:26.602) Whereas a client might only know their industry, maybe they know two or three, but we have often been sitting in the middle of 10 or 15. Sometimes it's the unique combination of insights that gives us an advantage. You know, I saw something in a retail that might be useful for banking. Or I saw something in the sports industry that's never been done before in the insurance industry. And so we are sitting on that. So when I say, Hey, creative people. Peter (18:51.706) So we are sitting on that. when I say, Hey credit people, it's taking stock of what we know. And if we use it and we bring that over to another category, it's fresh, but you're not coming in with something that's completely random. I've seen it work. That's such a good thought. I, know, it's funny. We work with something like insurance, right? And they're like, we want to be the best looking insurance application out there. It's like, yeah, but what about Saab Quao (18:55.202) Let's take stock of what we know. If we use it and we bring that over to another category, it's fresh, but you're not coming in with something that's completely random. You've seen it work. Saab Quao (19:12.75) be well. Peter (19:18.313) VRBO or Netflix like they also have great models and great UX that you could apply to the insurance category and blow all of these out of the water. It's just a it's an interesting shift of like you don't have to look at your own category for your competition. In fact, it's better not to look Especially insurance. Everyone following the same strategy. Yeah, yeah. So when you bring in something that's been proven in a different industry. Saab Quao (19:18.542) They also have a pretty model that you can apply. Saab Quao (19:28.014) It's just an interesting chip. Yes. In fact, it's better not to look at your own category because everyone following the same strategy is no strategy. So when you bring in something that's been proven in a different industry, not only are you bringing in something that becomes unique because you've shifted it to a different category, but you've also lowered the risk. And lowering of risk is something that, you know, I have a good rapport with. Peter (19:46.076) not only bringing in something that becomes unique because of shit. You've also lowered the risk. And lowering risk is something that, you know, I have a good rapport with financial officers where I'll say, even though we're bringing in creativity, part of the equation is me lowering your risk in some kind of capital investment that you're going to make. So bringing this comparative thing, I've seen this work before. not coming in with something bleeding random. Right. You're lowering risk. Saab Quao (20:02.22) Chief Financial Officers where I'll say, even though we're bringing in creativity, part of the equation is me lowering your risk in some kind of capital investment that you're going to make. So bringing in this comparative insight saying, I've seen this work before. I'm not coming in with something bleeding edge and random. You're lowering risk. And that makes the check signer happy. Peter (20:21.383) And that makes the check signer happy. yeah, yeah. That's exactly, it's a bit of security, right? Cause I think there's always that, oh, this is the agency with their wild card, right? Like, um, so while we're on the topic of agencies and AI, I have an opinion on this, but I'm curious to see how you, cause you understand the model of an agency is, you know, made up of media and a creative team and account team. And, and you've got, you know, some digital people and Saab Quao (20:34.737) So while we're on the topic of agents, have a question on this, but I'm curious, because you understand a lot of the agents, you know, who are made up of media, radio, TV, how to do that, and you've got some digital people, and who knows what else, right? What is the evolution that's needed, or are there risks involved? Do see a complete detachment from the... Peter (20:50.857) who knows what else, right? With AI coming in, what is the evolution that's needed or are there risks involved? Do you see a complete detachment from the traditional model or like just curious to get your kind of, what do you think the blueprint is of modern marketing in the future? Saab Quao (21:02.402) digital model for like just what do you think modern marketing in future? Okay. So let's first talk about the evolution. There are going to be some patterns that we follow that we've seen before and done well at. So any of us who've had a long enough time in the industry, and I usually use the 25 year marker of the start of the digital era. So late nineties, early Peter (21:12.04) So let's first talk about the evolution. There are going to be some patterns that we follow that we've seen before and done well. So any of us who've had a long enough time in the industry, I usually use the 25 year marker to start with the digital era. It's a late 90s or way back. Yeah. But think of what we went through. We had to become digital. Saab Quao (21:31.37) all the way that dot com meltdown. But think of what we went through as agencies. We had to become digital. The typesetting industry disappeared completely. Computers became parts of studios and not only did they become parts of how we worked, think of all the iterations of software that we've tangled with. Do you remember QuarkXPress? I do. And then do you remember all the talk about the Quark killer? Peter (21:49.259) Yeah. I do. I worked on it. Oh, yeah. Saab Quao (21:59.27) Because that was going to be what Adobe came in with InDesign. So the one thing I remind creative people is, remember, we're really good at moving from one platform change to another, keeping the creative agenda driving forward. So here we are in the AI era with a whole new set of tools. And we're probably some of the best equipped people in the world to deal with that kind of platform and technology and tool change, digital tools. Peter (22:09.071) change to another and keeping the creative agenda driving forward. So here we are in the AI era with a whole new set of tools and we're probably some of the best equipped people in the world to deal with that kind of platform and technology and tool change, digital tools. So that's the first advantage in terms of the evolution. Second, how are we going to use those tools? We have to be careful. Saab Quao (22:29.102) So that's the first advantage in terms of the evolution. Second, how are we going to use those tools? We have to be careful of the commodification of our work. So let's say something used to cost $10,000. In the client's head, wow, that's only going to cost $100 now because of AI. And you know that that is not true. Peter (22:39.63) right Saab Quao (22:56.588) But there will be an efficiency play in terms of costs. Think of what the cost of retouching used to be at the start of our careers versus now. You can actually use AI to automate your retouching. So we have to think about which parts of the business become efficiencies, but they're not competitive advantages because they become industry standards. Does anyone retouch the old way? No, everyone retouches a new way. So they're going to be uses about Peter (23:00.559) Yeah Yeah Saab Quao (23:25.614) of AI that we're all going to evolve to and they are industry standards and they're not a source of competitive advantage. That's just day to day business. So the thing we have to move into with AI is where are we using our creativity, our strategy and our go to market to create new value. And that creation of new value is also a creative process saying no one was using these tools in generative AI three years ago. Now we are, but. Peter (23:30.472) are not the source of competitive advantage. That's just day-to-day business. So the thing we have to move into with AI is where are we using creativity, our strategy, and our go-to-market to create new value? And that creation of new value is also rated for us as saying, no one was using these tools in generative AI three years ago. Here we are. But don't take it at face value. What are we creating that's actually new that creates a premium value? Saab Quao (23:52.162) Don't take it at face value. What are we creating that's actually new that creates a premium value? And what are the things that we can do that others can't do? So again, I'll go back to, well, what is it that agencies do well? Well, we don't just keep talking. We build real things. We are this last mile in terms of the thing that ends up touching an audience. So how we use all these tools and all these methods is going to be tested in some practical way. It's on us. Peter (23:58.177) What are the things that we can do that others can't do? So, I'll go back to what is the agencies do well? We don't just keep talking and build real things. We're this last mile in terms of the thing that ends up touching the audience. So how we use all these tools and all these methods is going to be tested in some practical way. It's on us to learn those practical ways. What's working? How is the consumer responding? What are the things that the consumer doesn't buy into? We already know that there's an AI aesthetic. Saab Quao (24:20.238) to learn those practical ways of what's working. How is the consumer responding? What are the things that the consumer doesn't buy into? You know, we already know that there's an AI aesthetic. Well, that's not going to last because brands have to not converge in their expression. They actually have to stay divergent and distinct. So creative people are not going to use these tools at FaceValue. We're going to break them. Yeah. It's interesting. Peter (24:31.868) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned that and some of the. some of the conversations I've had around creativity and AI have been really interesting because a lot of the time, in fact, in a lot of areas, it felt like AI is allowing people to be more creative, just because it takes away some of those tasks. Like you mentioned, prepping your files for presentation used to take a day, right? You would sit there, you work for six hours, six days of the week. Saab Quao (24:53.24) some of the conversation. Saab Quao (24:58.574) In fact, a lot of ways, AI is not to be more creative, just to take away some of Prepping your file presentation, you used to take a day, you would sit there and you'd work for six hours, six days a week, making your ideas and concepts, you know, spend the last day reading the presentation, and then you'd it to everybody. Well, now you that day back, because you have potentially put that presentation in there for a week, and now you've got seven days' work with ideas and creative thinking instead of sitting And not only do you get that day back, Peter (25:18.264) making your ideas and concepts and then you spend the last day making your presentation so you can present it to everybody. Well now you can get that day back because AI could potentially put that presentation together for you and now you've got seven days worth of ideas and creative thinking instead of six. Saab Quao (25:37.762) you're actually going to start to do completely different things with that day. And so part of it is, let's think about some of our assumptions about digital and personalization. I think personalization right now sucks. So you're online and you click something that interests you. And for the next seven days... Peter (25:37.999) going to start to do completely different things with that day. part of it is, let's think about some of our assumptions about... Peter (25:51.269) Personalization right now sucks. So, you're online and you click something. Yeah, forever Saab Quao (26:00.706) You're followed by that brand and then every other brand that has identified the pattern of maybe you'll be a customer. And then maybe you bought the product and you're still being followed. And so that assumption around personalization absolutely sucks, but it's become one of the industry norms about, well, you know, we can target the consumer. The consumer is not enjoying that experience. So what is it that you're going to do with that free time? I'm working with one company that has completely inverted the assumptions around personalization. I am obsessed with that because I said the entire industry is doing something that the consumer doesn't want. With that free day of time, that is what I'm learning. And that's what I want to bring in to the Walmarts and the McDonald's and the TD saying, I don't want to do personalization the way we've done it with the assumptions around big data and targeting for the last 10 years. I want to do it this way. And then I'm... Peter (26:33.037) I am obsessed with that because I I love that. With that free day of time, that is what I'm learning. That's what I want to bring in to the Walmarts and the McDonald's and the TD saying, I don't want to do personalization the way we've done it with assumptions around big data and targeting for the last 10 years. I want to do it this way. And then I'm saying it and saying, and here is why. And then I put the example in front of them. That's what I'm doing with that extra day. I love that. I totally believe that personalization has a very blurry definition. Saab Quao (26:57.846) saying it and saying, here is why. And then I put the example in front of them. That's what I'm doing with that extra day. Yeah. I love that. It could mean, which everyone does. Why it is just real realization. Correct. Refreshing. Peter (27:10.167) It could mean using your name in an email, which everyone does. It doesn't feel personal because everyone does it. Right. But it's just real personalization shouldn't feel like advertising. Right. Right. So I love that thought. It's refreshing and a little to hear that people are working on it, too. Yeah. And sometimes they're working on it, not because they're marketers. Working on it for. Yeah. So. Saab Quao (27:27.478) to hear about people working on it. And sometimes they're working on it not because they're marketers. They're working on it for another reason. So the company that I spoke to about it, they're in the long pedigree in the location-based entertainment industry, theater and cinema entertainment, and they were working on something that was around use of AI. Peter (27:39.012) company that I spoke to about it, they're in the long pedigree, occasion-based entertainment industry, theater and cinema entertainment, and they were working on something that was around use of AI for a kind of customized experience, and I sat there saying, you know, you've actually inverted personalization. I want to take that into other things that I'm doing. Saab Quao (27:55.35) for a kind of customized experience. And I sat there saying, you know, you've actually inverted personalization. I want to take that into other things that I'm doing. So they didn't start off thinking about personalization. They were, they're building something very specific, but it's the extrapolation of that, creates value in, I think, industries right away. So that's what I'm working on alongside with helping them on their core business. Peter (28:05.701) So they didn't start off thinking about personalization, were building something very specific. But it's the extrapolation of that that creates value. And you're five other industries right away. So that's what I'm working on, alongside with helping them in their core business. Saab Quao (28:22.424) Thanks for questions. There was an experiment a long time ago, I don't know much about the details of the story, but basically three creative developers, three or three, were probably together in this challenge. So they they drove them all in the same path, this like, path was three different, and they would go by a certain number of times, potentially there, and they all came together, and they all got the same brief, and they were... Peter (28:34.124) three creative directors from three different agencies were brought together in this kind of experiment. they would, they drove them all in the same path to this place. And the path was predetermined and they would go by certain objects that were intentionally there. And then they, they all came together in this room and then they all got the same brief and they were to come up with a campaign and they all went separately into different rooms. They came up with a campaign, they presented them back and all the campaigns were very similar. Saab Quao (28:53.646) They presented them back and all the campaigns were very similar. They had elements in them that they thought were very unique but were literally blackmailed on the group that they made. So they thought the zoo would be something. So suddenly there was animals and they had a campaign. So a whole thing to kind of say, we're a collection of our impressions of the world around us to come together and we're trying to think creatively. Peter (29:01.476) They had elements in them that they thought were very unique, but were literally planted along the route that they made. So they saw, you know, the zoo was maybe something. So suddenly there was animals and a campaign. So a whole thing to kind of say, Hey, we are a collection of the, impressions and the world around us comes together when we're trying to think creatively where we're using elements. And so maybe subconsciously you think it's a new idea, but you've actually saw it somewhere in the peripheral or something, and it came together. Saab Quao (29:23.086) Maybe some kind of just, you think this is like, back to or a girl or something, and they came together. And that's what came up with creativity. And then you look at your guy, has this ability to scour the world and do that together. Is that a threat to the creative process? I think it's a threat to creativity if you accept what the AI brings you. Peter (29:29.889) And that's how we come up with creativity. And then you look at AI, which has its ability to like scour every campaign and world and do that better. Is that a threat to creativity when you're coming up with campaign concepts or coming up with those types of things? I think it's a great, it's a threat to creativity. you accept what the AI brings you. Right. If we all enter in, if we all enter similar prompts, we're all going to end up with the same ad word. Saab Quao (29:51.886) If we all enter in, if we all enter similar prompts, we're all going to end up with the same averaged answer. And so when I say, well, creative people are going to be the first people who shouldn't accept what's been sent to us at face value. And remember, when we think about the principles of what generative AI is, it's giving you the next plausible answer. Right. Peter (29:59.233) Yeah. So when I say, well, creative people are going to be the first people who shouldn't accept what's been sent to us at fixed value. Remember, when we think about the principles of what generative AI is, it's giving you the next plausible answer. Right. And we don't watch the next person answer if we're all going to get the same answer. So we have to think about, yes, we're trying to build campaigns. Saab Quao (30:16.75) We don't want the next plausible answer. We're all going to get the same answer. So we have to think about, yes, we're trying to build campaigns that have some longevity and expansiveness. We have to think about the uniqueness of what we built. And that uniqueness is not going to be completely mediated by AI. We actually need some outlier thinking to break from the averaged out answer. Yeah. I love that. Peter (30:37.342) Yeah, I love that you know and it's funny is another term that I heard today it was an unconscious Incompetence where it's like if you don't understand what good creative is or if you don't have the Saab Quao (30:47.022) unconscious, incompetence. You don't understand what good career is. don't have the experience to ask some questions and you just accept them. So there is professionals in creative world, just understand that, I can have a lot of success. It doesn't be quite right. need to push this. There are things that you can't broaden your experience. Peter (30:56.002) the experience to ask the right questions, then you just accept it, right? So there is this need for professionals in the creative world, especially, just understanding that, hey, I can actually challenge this, or this doesn't feel right, or that we need to push this, or things that you kind of brought in by experience and all that kind of thing. So that's really, that makes sense to me. Saab Quao (31:15.63) So that makes sense to me. What about, here's another question, it's very random. It's just something waiting to like, throw it down. I've been wondering a little bit about students coming into the world, marketing, communications, and looking at the tasks that we use to cut. Peter (31:18.561) Yeah. What about, here's another question. Sorry. Random questions. It's just, I've been waiting to like unleash on someone in my world. there's, I've been wondering a little bit about students like coming into this world, marketing and communications and whatnot, and looking at the tasks that you used to cut your teeth on when you're, you know, first starting out would be stuff like building banner ads or formatting PowerPoints or like all this stuff. No one wants to do. Saab Quao (31:39.566) first started talking to me stuff like building bands or formatting PowerPoints or all the stuff you want to do. But it allows you to get home with your skills and free global risk. Now AI content, that's the main daughter that takes more because those are the jobs that are competitive and task-oriented that are fairly easy to replicate. Peter (31:47.959) but allows you to kind of get honed with your skills in pretty low risk kind of jobs. Now AI comes in and that's the immediate fodder of it taking over because those are the jobs that are fairly repetitive and task oriented that is fairly easy to replicate. is there, how do students kind of get up to speed or get into the world now that seems to be Saab Quao (32:07.306) So is there a way how do you get up to speed with the world? I've seen those types of jobs. And it's because I want to see how do you think that's a way for it? So. Peter (32:15.81) those types of jobs are being kind of replaced. So I'm curious to like, and it's because I talked to students for a bit, just like how do you think that's evolving or is it? Saab Quao (32:30.092) I've been approached by a lot of students over the last day. Quite excited about what I said as the path ahead. And I'm going to use this comparison again to the start of the digital era. I was probably the last year of any student entering the industry that you had to learn how to use a stat camera. And probably within six months of me starting to work in the industry, no one ever used a stat camera again. Peter (32:33.11) Quite exciting. Peter (32:42.331) from the last year. Peter (32:50.504) All right. Saab Quao (32:58.924) So that's one, there are certain things that are just going to go by the wayside. So the student is actually not going to be encumbered by that. Second, because I was so digital early, I could probably at the start of my career enter any studio and be almost the most digital person in the room. And that meant that people came to me at that time in mid to late nineties. Peter (33:14.657) any student and be almost the most professional person in the room. And that meant that people came to me at that time in 1990s. Like, all right, bring it to Sabab because he actually knows how to do this. So every time I encounter a student, I say to them, you go all on your use of AI. Saab Quao (33:28.398) All right, bring it to Sabab because he actually knows how to do this. So every time I encounter a student, I say to them, you go all in on your use of AI. if you do, you too will enter a studio and because it's native to you, you might know how to do things that no one in the building can do. And I practice what I preach because, you know, I have Peter (33:42.249) Yeah Saab Quao (33:57.646) two teenage sons and one of them is going into the creative industry. I probably got Arlo his own license to chat GPT maybe a month after mine because I said Arlo you actually have to start using this and I know all your profs and teachers are saying this isn't acceptable. I said do not listen go and use this now. Peter (34:10.018) Right. I'm in the same boat. Saab Quao (34:24.766) One year, year and a half later, he's now just been entered into university. But I've watched Arlo use an iPad to draw. I've seen him draw with charcoal, like at outstanding level. And then he'll switch to use of AI. And then he'll use something that he's drawn and he'll start to train a model. Peter (34:37.793) yeah Saab Quao (34:48.878) in using AI around something that he drew. His workflow can now move in any direction. So I know when he graduates from university three years from now, he will probably be able to do some things that I don't think I've seen anyone in an agency do. And that's what I mean by so I say to all students, 16, 19 year old, 20, 21 year olds, go and start using it now because you are actually going to enter into the industry with new value. Peter (35:17.697) Mm-hmm I love that. It was interesting my son 18 turning 18 this week God help us He he we I got him on chat and again his teachers very against it but It was interesting to see how he immediately started using it in ways that I hadn't even connected the dots on. Right. So he had his, he was doing his math homework and he had filled it all out wrong. He got it wrong. It's like long division math. So he took a picture of it and stuck it in a chat GPT and said, what am I doing wrong? I'm like, Oh, I didn't know you could do that. And he didn't even think to think that you couldn't do it. Right. So that to me was that generation gap. I'm like, Oh, wow, you are in it. And I am still trying to make these like neural connections because I'm wired a different way. Saab Quao (35:35.318) It was interesting to see how he started using it. Exactly. So took a picture of it and he said, am I doing wrong? Like, Oh, I didn't do that. He didn't even think that he could. Right. So that to me was generating the app while you were in it. I am still trying to make neural connections because I'm wired in a different way. So I love that story because again, when I talk about workflow, he took the thing that he had written. Peter (36:05.162) Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Saab Quao (36:14.08) Old world. Yeah. And immediately just threw it into the new environment to solve the fix to the problem. But that's what I mean by it's workflow. Yeah. And he didn't even think about where he had started or finished. He just moved towards the solution in the most efficient manner without having to go and ask for help without pondering over it blindly. And so this old world and new world skill is I think one of the areas of creation of value. You know, so I have one son who It's becoming natural. But my other son reads voraciously, understands politics and sociology. So when he connects the dots, he brings in this encyclopedic knowledge. So when he's applying something, he's doing it from a different funnel than the other kid. But I say to both of them, you have to be creative. I don't care what you go out and do. again, my thesis about creative people saying we have a baked in advantage. Peter (36:48.478) Right Saab Quao (37:10.956) going forward or backward through any situation. And I've seen it with my teenagers and that's what I want our young or entry level staff to do. Be able to think laterally regardless of what's been given, put in front of you and use the tool as you see fit. They're not going to accept the tool at face value. Your son didn't even think, he didn't even think about it. He didn't think about what you can't do. He just did what he needed to do. Exactly. And I think that especially for talent. Peter (37:17.503) Exactly and it's just it's so funny to see that and I think that's the advantage because Especially right now and as was telling Finn he's like all the companies are run A lot of them are run by people my age or millennials or people who are not used to this. yeah, that's that is true. That is your that is the way to get in. That's that's amazing. Saab Quao (37:50.414) So people really need to lean in, but it is also about enhancing their creativity. Peter (37:59.515) Yeah, I love it. We're almost at time here. Do have anything you wanted to get out before I wrap this up? Saab Quao (38:03.17) We're almost out of time here. Do you have anything you wanted to tell before we have to stop? So one of the things that strikes me, you know, I delivered the opening keynote. Yeah. And I talked about this unique window of opportunity for Canada, where, you know, the theme was this disruptive ambition and Peter (38:15.625) Yeah Saab Quao (38:28.29) There is an opportunity for Canada to change our own perspective on startups, on growth, about markets and industries and where we work. And that was really well embraced by the room. And people have to remember, you know, I used to do business development out of London. And so I'd be pitching projects in Prague, Rome, it didn't matter. And everyone's like, you're Canadian. Peter (38:28.351) There is an opportunity in Canada to change our own perspective on startups, growth, about markets and things where we work. And that was really well-informed by the ring. And people have to Peter (38:50.84) the Saab Quao (38:58.286) And I remember thinking, this is amazing. You know that being Canadian out in the world makes you sometimes a partner of choice. so one of the things I wrapped up in the keynote was, said, you're going to start to see different leadership that comes from maybe unlikely people or unlikely places. And I said, just remember, no one necessarily expects Canada, we're a small country, but the goal is to punch above our weight. Peter (39:20.35) No one necessarily expects Canada, somewhere small country, but the goal is to punch above our weight. And we already do. Let's go to the 10th Festival of Adagency, where last year we ranked number four. So US, UK, Brazil, France, Germany, Spain. But then I put up on the screen and said, who's the smallest population in the top seven? So here we are at number four, and we know. Saab Quao (39:28.622) And we already do it. So let's go to the Cannes Festival of Advertising, where last year we ranked number four. So US, UK, Brazil, France, Germany, Spain. But then I put up on the screen, I said, who's the smallest population in the top seven? So here we are ranked number four. And you know, I I sit on the advisory for the digital and young lions. And I said, you know that there's a path. Peter (39:50.078) I I sit on the advisory for digital and alliance. And I said, you know that there's a path for us to get to number three, number two, and maybe even number one. And so you see that creative ambition coming from our A to Z creative teams. So to the rest of the room, said, so what happens when we do that with other industries? Saab Quao (39:58.726) for us to get to number three, number two, and maybe even number one. And so you see that creative ambition coming from our agencies and our creative teams. So to the rest of the room, said, so what happens when we do that with other industries? And I pointed out the insurance industry, where we have some of the best insurance companies in the world. It's tech insurance, manual life insurance, Sun Life. These are world leaders in some markets, but they're immediate. Peter (40:12.271) Right. yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Saab Quao (40:27.968) So it's not always going to be obvious or creative and sexy. They're going to be infrastructure industries where you're going to see Canadian creativity play out and we have a plausible path to. world leadership in many verticals if we up our ambition, if we're more disruptive about our ambition. And that was the theme and that has been well received by the audience. And many people have been speaking to me over the last 24 hours asking specifically about, know what, you're right. We weren't thinking big enough. We weren't on an adjacent market. We were thinking about, we raise our risk if we don't think creatively early. Yeah. It's funny. Peter (40:39.711) Yeah. Yeah, it's funny creativity when it comes to business planning is sounds strange, but it makes tons of sense. Right. It's like thinking outside the box of like, should we be changing verticals? Should we be changing our product? Even your example of like, yeah, you're building this product, but this actual thing that you was almost a throwaway could actually be the thing that propels you more. As long as you have someone who can look at it and go, Hey, there's a great opportunity there. Saab Quao (41:09.262) strange, but it means it's not perfect. It's thinking outside the box, like, hopefully, should we be changing our verticals or contributing, then changing our product. Even your example, like, yeah, you really can't find a product actually a thing. It's almost a throwaway. It could actually be the thing that propels it more. As long as you have something. Exactly. And it doesn't mean we're going to do it in every single industry. I think we need to pick some battles as a country saying, what are we really good at? Where do we have some advantages? And this is very normal from a business planning or an investment thesis. I said to you, I'm only working with AI and fintech. But the branches underneath that, personalization, which I told you about, I'm working with wealth management and embedded finance. I work with synthetic data. Peter (41:46.897) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. I'm with a company that's basically translating expertise as software to how you might end up with a strategy clone that side by side with it. So I'm not trying to continue with category. I've got myself. I think we're going to start to see patterns in terms of where Canada starts to develop. Saab Quao (41:59.726) I'm working with a company that's basically translating expertise as software. So how you might end up with a strategy clone that you work side by side with. If someone comes to me with certain categories, I just sort of say, no, can't, I've got my central thesis. I think we're going to start to see patterns in terms of where Canada starts to develop some industry leading expertise that can actually compete at international level. It doesn't have to be everything. We just need to pick some battles and go hard. Peter (42:30.449) I love it because the timing couldn't be better. There's so much Canadian pride right now Saab Quao (42:37.518) time is amazing, it's amazing and there's some shared ambition for sure right now regardless of any past conflicts. I definitely noticed that everyone's like, you know, we're in, we're all in on this pursuit and so never seen that before in Canada. I think it's going to pay off. Peter (42:59.521) Well, sometimes change is good you get forced out of your rut and you're like, oh we should have changed a long time ago Yeah Yeah, no, even the diversification right of understanding. Hey, it doesn't all have to be in one spot It's like agencies know you don't have one client you want to have a portfolio, right? Yeah Saab Quao (43:04.462) Yeah, it's amazing. Saab Quao (43:12.654) because the agents can help you find it. want to have it fully. And it's also, we're seeing even regional differences. So Cassette is a Quebec company operating internationally now in terms of the agency network. But some of the projects that we're working on were investments that were seeded by the federal government and the Quebec government in terms of use of AI. Peter (43:26.492) Great. Saab Quao (43:40.174) So we just won one of the scale AI grants to basically use AI as part of our operations. And we're applying it in a very specific, powerful way. But you see Quebec has that hustle, but here I am in Calgary and wow, you can see people saying we are actually going to deploy capital differently from our oil and gas and natural resources path. So you're seeing the same ambition in Alberta that is very similar to Emirates. Peter (43:56.06) You can see people saying, we are actually going to deploy capital differently from oil and gas and other resources at the top. So you're seeing the same condition in Alberta that is very similar to Emirates. And that is amazing. You're seeing some regional differences in approaches, but we have seen that work before for Canada. Now we're applying it to the Saab Quao (44:10.86) And that is amazing. So you're seeing some regional differences in approaches, but we have seen that work before for Canada, and now we're applying it just in a different way. Peter (44:23.406) Yeah, it feels like a little bit of a ember that's about to like spark here, which is so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like we could talk all day. Honestly. I didn't tell you this is actually a four hour podcast. Saab Quao (44:27.93) It's so exciting, actually. Yeah. So I'm to keep talking. Honestly, quite exciting. But you know, what's really exciting is we have this overlap in terms of we know our industry from a 30-year timeline. So we have this comparative insight. So it's so interesting to sort of exchange some of those. But even the age of our kids, just sort of saying we have this little lab of teenagers in front of us. Peter (44:43.964) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Saab Quao (44:57.774) who use AI in a different way. And so I feel that, wow, I've got a free window that changed my assumptions on how this technology should be used. Are you kids gamers? Yeah. Are they on Discord? Yeah. OK. Have you seen anything in agency work that is using sound the way teenagers use sound as a social layer? Peter (45:13.755) Have you seen any agency work that is using sound the way teenagers use sound as a social media? So they move people to communicate socially. But then have you ever seen people out there who call themselves... Saab Quao (45:33.829) So they move between using it to communicate socially. Have you ever seen them collaboratively problem solving? Yes. They don't need to see each other, which is why they consider Zoom corporate. Yeah. They're using audio channel to socialize and problem solve in terms of coordinated activity in the game. And I said, I have not seen anything in our marketing world that has taken into account Peter (45:43.269) Yeah Yeah It's a really Saab Quao (45:59.79) that there are a whole bunch of 15 to 25 year olds who use technology as a social layer and a problem solving layer. Peter (46:09.655) Amazing thought because you don't really think about it, but you're right like we don't we as adults don't communicate like that Right, and it's almost like an always-on thing where they are. They're just even if they're not talking. They're still available Yeah, and it's true it says so and it's interesting to see them work together and how they have the time to talk in half the time They aren't but they're just sitting there and it's a different relationship, right? Saab Quao (46:13.56) We as adults don't communicate like that. And it's almost like they're always on a thing where they are, they're just, they're not talking to the civil people. Yeah. And it's just, it's so interesting to see them work together. but they're just in a different relationship. So we've all dealt with the work from home. is there a layer of young people who are going to stay connected through the day as they collaboratively work on the creative problem? Yeah. They're doing it anyway, in their own way. Even if they end up seeing companies are like different, not? Peter (46:42.266) Is there a layer of work? Peter (46:50.297) Yeah. Peter (46:56.214) Even if they end up in the same buildings, you see companies are like, everyone come in and then everyone go to your separate office. Right. So it's not necessarily collaborative. Right. But if you are in a, you're together, but you can still connect in that way, it doesn't matter where you are. it really is. I think there's going to be a huge shift in how we communicate. It's funny when you talk of AI and how the impacts that it can have, not only from. Saab Quao (47:03.438) So it's not necessarily that you are together, can't go that way, no matter where you are. It really is... I think there's going to be a lot of change in how we can... It's funny, I'm talking to the gallery, how the UPS, have not only from just software, but just infrastructure. Peter (47:24.25) just software and how we do things, but just infrastructure, like how cities are planned, how we actually change. It's like, I've heard someone equate it to the industrial revolution, like buildings and everything were planned around factories and how to get to work and all that stuff. Now we're getting into this new era and it could change everything, how we commute. Saab Quao (47:28.91) how cities are planned, how we have changed the site. The first one was an industrial revolution. Buildings that were planned around factories and how we get to work and all that stuff. Now we're getting into this big para-app. We could change everything. How we change the highway. Do we need highways if they are coming? Cars are going to change because we may not be moving all to downtown every day. that's gathering all these communities. That is so fascinating. Peter (47:46.042) Do we need highways as big as they are or how cars are going to change? Because we're maybe not commuting all to a downtown every day and then it's scattering out to communities. Like it's just so fascinating. I don't know. I don't know where it all goes. Saab Quao (47:57.678) I don't know. I don't know where it all goes. I think it's a good ride. You know, it's an exciting time. Exactly. Well, thank you very much for taking time out of your day. I appreciate you doing this. I can't wait to see you again. Certainly. Absolutely. All right. Thanks very much for having me today. You're welcome. Peter (48:03.392) Exactly. Well, Sabba, my friend, thank you very much for taking time out of your day. I appreciate you doing this. I again, I hope we can stay in touch because I loved talking with you. You're welcome. Thank you.